Dori Durbin: Welcome to That's Good Parenting, the podcast where we search for simple steps to reduce your parenting stress. I'm your host, Dorrie Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, and podcaster. I help parenting experts take their biggest ideas and kid-size them into children's books that families can continue learning from long after this podcast is over.
Dori Durbin: Now, parents, I know that you have great plans, like how you wanna respond to your kids in any situation. Maybe you picture yourself in a hot moment staying calm, s- choosing those helpful words and handling difficult moments with confidence. Then your kiddo refuses to get dressed, fights with a sibling, or has some major reaction, and suddenly you're responding in exactly the way you swore you wouldn't do.
Dori Durbin: There are lots of suggestions, but what if the first step is actually understanding what's happening with yourself? Today's guest, Madison Freeman, brings that perspective to our conversation. [00:01:00] Madison is the founder of Elevated Minds Growth Center, and a child and family development coach with a background in education and human development.
Dori Durbin: She helps parents understand themselves so they can better understand their kids. Her work helps families recognize stressful patterns and make small, realistic changes that build stronger relationships Madison, welcome to That's Good Parenting.
Madison Friedman: Hi, Dori. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
Dori Durbin: It is such a delight to have you, and I love what you represent and your background.
Dori Durbin: One of the things that you shared with me was that you were the oldest of five- Yes ... and you had sort of complicated dynamics in your relationship. So how did these experiences lead you to the work that you do with parents and children today?
Madison Friedman: Yes. Well, being the oldest of five is definitely a challenge within itself.
Madison Friedman: Um, and a lot of my work is kind of grounded in how my parents showed up for me and my [00:02:00] siblings, but more specifically for me. What kind of drives all of my work, which is helping parents recognize different patterns, um, recognizing how they might be showing up in certain moments, and how they wish they were showing up in those moments, and recognizing what their child might be interpreting or what they might be trying to communicate in those moments, was really grounded by kind of the support that I had within my own family system.
Madison Friedman: My parents Well, I grew up with them being divorced. So it was really a back and forth between Mom and Dad's house, and my parents are... I love them to death, and they have accomplished so much in their lives, but oftentimes for me, I kind of felt like it was a battle of how can they live their life and achieve their goals and kind of live their dream life while also taking care of me and my [00:03:00] siblings.
Madison Friedman: And I found myself becoming the parent to my siblings when my parents were busy doing what they needed to do. And so to kind of bring it all back, a big portion of why I do what I do is because I really believe that two things can be true at once, that parents are allowed to live their lives, accomplish their dreams, accomplish goals, achieve goals, while also being able to raise kids that are understood and supported.
Madison Friedman: But I wish that my parents kind of had that sort of support because when parents are being able to be supported in living their best lives and showing up the way that they want to show up rather than the way that they've been showing up, that automatically just goes right into how your children are showing up and your relationship with your children, their relationship with you, and with their understanding of kind of their placement in the home, in the family, and [00:04:00] taking it outside of the home and the family, like socially, how they're showing up in school, just in general, like how they view themselves, how they show up.
Madison Friedman: I love kids, I love being with kids, I love working with kids, but I kind of recognize that kids are so receptive to the adults in their life, whether it be mom, dad, teacher, friend, babysitter, whatever it might be. Kids are so receptive to them, and I wanted to be able to serve the kids.
Madison Friedman: But the best way to serve the kids is to serve the parents. And every parent deserves that type of support so that they can be the best version of themselves, understand what makes them tick, and also be able to understand their children better and what makes them tick based on your own personal goals.
Madison Friedman: Yeah.
Dori Durbin: You said so many amazing things right there, and you probably don't even realize it 'cause it's so matter of fact for you. But- ... I think when when I think about families, and especially even, like, [00:05:00] my kids, I was a stay-at-home mom for most of my kids' lives up until they got into school.
Dori Durbin: I was an educator. I have a master's degree. Like, I had, earned all the things, but I made these decisions to, split that. And I think what you're saying about having both is really, really powerful because I don't think that many people feel like that is, A, possible, and B, something that they should try to do.
Dori Durbin: I think, they limit themselves in the fact that they feel like that's almost, I don't want to say selfish, but it's self-indulging in a way. Yeah. And you've got these kids that are depending on you, and it's just, it's such a, an emotional struggle. So do you find that pretty common? And if so, like, how do you help people through that?
Madison Friedman: Yeah, I find it extremely common. And c- when you were speaking, one thing that immediately came to my mind was the whole aspect of kind of self-indulging. Like, if you are able to work [00:06:00] or follow some sort of dream that you had prior to having a family, then they're, you're not parenting correctly or showing up correctly for your family.
Madison Friedman: But I think, I'm a personal believer that, how can you kind of pour into somebody else's cup if your cup is not filled? And being a parent is the most fulfilling, the most rewarding, and the most difficult job there is ever. But you also need to be able to be fueled by what passions you and by what drives you and motivates you.
Madison Friedman: And, if you want to be the best version of who you are and you want to show up the best way for your child, then you also need to do the work to live your life for you. And I think that- To go back to your question, like, there are so many parents who don't believe that can happen all at the same time.
Madison Friedman: And I r- I like to challenge them [00:07:00] and kind of say like, "It's you against you in this world. So if you believe that you can show up for yourself and, and go after your goals and go after your dreams while also supporting the life that you're building and the life that you created, then what's stopping you?"
Madison Friedman: You know? My parents accomplished so much and continue to achieve and accomplish so much, and I wish that they had that support behind them, encouraging them that they were able to do that so that they don't give up on what fuels them. Because when you give up on that, then you create a lot of resentment, and that resentment really does, like, travel down the line, you know?
Dori Durbin: Ooh, let's talk about that, 'cause that was one of the things on the top of my mind, too, was, you know, losing control. I feel like a lot of times when parents really lose the control when they're trying not to, when they're, , actively engaged in trying not to, that it's because you're at, like, this boiler point of, like, [00:08:00] trying to keep everything in.
Dori Durbin: And it feels like, what you're trying to do is show them this thing gives you energy, makes you feel accomplished, makes you feel like you got something done in your day that was different than just being... This sounds bad, but just being a good parent. It's a different perspective.
Dori Durbin: It's, it's more focused on giving you as a person a feeling of accomplishment versus giving yourself up to your kids.
Madison Friedman: Yeah.
Dori Durbin: So when you have somebody who is blowing up who isn't recognizing that, are there patterns that they can see? Like, how do they discern between, like, I'm really mad and I'm just feeling stressed and pulled apart right now?
Madison Friedman: That's a really good question. In every situation, it's obviously different. It depends on what's going on in the moment. But something that is kind of a key framework of mine is I really like to almost reverse engineer it. So the way that, our sessions would work, for example, with virtual [00:09:00] parent coaching, is it's almost like if you were watching a movie of the whole scene going on, like let's say Johnny is...
Madison Friedman: You've been telling him, "It's time to get in the car. We gotta go." Like, you're feeling this sense of urgency, you know? And it doesn't matter what you do, nothing's happening, and that pressure, that urgency is really getting to you, and you're, like, snapping. The way that I like to run our sessions is basically as if it was a movie scene, and you can press pause and play.
Madison Friedman: And you can kind of see what happened before the big moment, what happened during it, and what happened after it. So you can see how you're showing up, like how you came into that moment to begin with. Because sometimes with parents, if they can already anticipate how it's going to go, that influences how they walk into it to begin with.
Madison Friedman: So if you know it's time to get in the car, and now you already know that Johnny's gonna throw a fit, and he's gonna throw his shoes everywhere, and [00:10:00] like flail and cry and scream. You're already gonna walk into it being like, "Okay, like five, four, three, two, one. Here's the explosion."
Madison Friedman: So you're not really making enough room for things to look different anyway. So that kind of goes into what's happening before the moment. Are you anticipating it to look a certain type of way? Is your communication style in alignment with how Johnny can understand it and be receptive to it?
Madison Friedman: Is the way that you're speaking a way that connects with him? And then we move on to what's happening during the moment. He's now screaming and flailing and crying and whatever, like causing a big, a big showdown. And you're, now you've lost it. Like, you went from being calm to you're also yelling, so you're contributing to the rising rage and anger, you know?
Madison Friedman: You are not able to keep it calm. You're not able to be cool with it. Now you're, like, you're saying a bunch of words. He's not [00:11:00] listening. Now you as the mother or the father wants to cry. Like, everything is going bad. And then we look at what happened after it. So what eventually got Johnny to calm down?
Madison Friedman: What eventually calmed you down? What was it that made that moment look differently? Or if the moment didn't go different, let's say it went how it normally goes, and eventually he just kinda was screaming and crying so much that he tired himself out, and then you were able to carry on. Like, we focus on the before, during, and after, and we look at all the different ways that they're showing up and the ways that their child is showing up, and what is in alignment with each other and what is in complete disconnect from one another
Dori Durbin: That's fascinating.
Dori Durbin: So really, like, you're asking them kind of what is the baggage and the expectation that they're bringing to the situation that they know is gonna happen.
Dori Durbin: And then how did it or didn't it work afterwards. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Madison Friedman: Basically. [00:12:00]
Dori Durbin: So do you find that you, have to re-educate parents as to, like, not only themselves, but also how their kids are reacting?
Dori Durbin: It seems like there's, , two different pieces going on at the same time. Well,
Madison Friedman: absolutely. That's, like, a huge part of it too, because I myself am not a parent, but I have worked a lot with... My whole professional career has been working with children and been very child-led. And as somebody who's working with a child but also has, like, a completely own life outside of this area, there's so many things going on.
Madison Friedman: And there... I might be so focused on something else that's not happening in this current moment, so the way that I show up, like, I could immediately snap at this kid who is so confused why I've lost it, because they're just focused on the fact that they wanted the toy truck and their friend has the toy truck instead.
Madison Friedman: But, and that's kind of the same thing as parents. If anything, it's, like, times [00:13:00] 10, because parents are expected to be on all day long. You don't get a break from being a mom or being a dad. And so you guys have, whether you're a stay-at-home mom, a stay-at-home dad, or a working parent, you have things going on.
Madison Friedman: You have other responsibilities all the time, that it can be very hard to see things in a different perspective, and more importantly, the perspective of the child who might be flailing or demonstrating some sort of undesirable behavior. And so a lot of the work that I do is, I wouldn't say, like, re-educating, because I think that ultimately as a parent you have that intuition and that instinct naturally, and you know your child and your family best, and I'm not here to prove otherwise.
Madison Friedman: It's more so how to support you and how to maybe offer a different perspective when you're so emotionally charged by a situation, where, like, it's very hard to see from the [00:14:00] outside maybe what's happening in it in that big moment.
Dori Durbin: So if I'm a parent who comes to you, we've gone through a session, I've talked about how stressed I was at work, how I was worried about if my kid's lunch was packed, um, all of the, the things that kind of run through your mind as a parent, and then how the day kind of blew up once we got home.
Dori Durbin: And I come to you and I say, "Okay, this is what happened. How do I start to change some of those patterns that we are picking up?"
Madison Friedman: I would ask what in your routine, so you've, you've packed lunch, and you've got them to school, and you're making sure everything is good, and you have, like, a bunch of thoughts racing in your head. What is counterproductive to you experiencing, like, positive emotions?
Madison Friedman: Like, what in your routine could you maybe place a little bit of responsibility onto your husband, if you have one, or onto your wife, if you have one? Where could you maybe take a [00:15:00] break and come back to something later on in the day when you have more free time? Like, are you jamming too many things into maybe your morning routine that kind of sets the tone for your day?
Madison Friedman: And then you pick up your child, and you're already really burnt out, and the, the big moments keep happening at home. Like, I would start off with what's going on before those moments even happen, and take the child away from it. Because a lot of this, has to do with you as the parent.
Madison Friedman: So if there are ways that you can kind of ground yourself and give yourself grounding tools to reanchor yourself in those moments before they even happen, sometimes that in itself can just change how it even goes. Because if you can have one tool that you can stay consistent with, it's sustainable, it's easy for you, and it resonates with you, then when Johnny's flailing around or doing X, Y, and Z, maybe you're not coming [00:16:00] into it with that same me- chaotic energy.
Madison Friedman: Instead, you feel more grounded, you feel more confident, you feel more capable, and most importantly, as parents, you wanna feel in control. That's, yeah, like, that's, um, some of what I would do. Again, it's very dependent on the situation. Like, I don't think that there is a one-size-fits-all in regard, in that regard.
Madison Friedman: But just going off of your example, that's what came to my mind.
Dori Durbin: No, I love that because I think, I think too often we do, we get caught up in everything and when you are somebody who works, there is, this high level of performance that you expect for yourself. Whether it's getting in the car at the right time, getting dinner on the table at the right time, whatever it...
Dori Durbin: And everybody's lives are so busy after the, the kids get home. Work doesn't stop, it just shifts, and there's more responsibilities and different things.
Madison Friedman: Yeah.
Dori Durbin: Um, I think it's easy, it's really easy not to enjoy being a parent. It's super easy. And it's unfortunate because [00:17:00] that's not why you had kids, but that's what kind of, i- it could snowball into that frustration and that resentment- Mm-hmm
Dori Durbin: and regret and all the things that even though you love your babies, it's much harder than what you want it to be. So then it goes back to that whole cyclical thing of, like, maybe I should quit my job. Maybe I should, you know,
Madison Friedman: like- Exactly.
Madison Friedman: The resentment not only towards your children because maybe you feel like mom or dad guilt that you feel as if it's not a burden, but maybe you're feeling like this is too much responsibility and life would've been easier if, like, X, Y, and Z, you know.
Madison Friedman: But also the resentment towards your partner. Like, how can you guys get on the same page where Mom doesn't have to make the lunches, drop them off, pick them up, make dinner, put them to bed, shower them, bathe them, whatever. Like, how can we share responsibility? Or how can I as Dad or I as Mom take something off of your plate?
Madison Friedman: Because even that one little [00:18:00] weight can make the biggest difference, but sometimes you don't know how to communicate it properly. Sometimes you don't even know what it is. Like, and that is a big reason why I love to do the work that I do because all you need sometimes is a space where you can talk and you can feel seen, you can feel heard, you can feel understood, and all the answers are within you already.
Madison Friedman: But you just need a healthy way to communicate it, whether it be with your child, your partner, yourself. It doesn't matter. You just need a space where you can be able to actually get it out.
Dori Durbin: Yeah. I love that, and I think it's very, very true for so many parents, and they just don't even, they don't even realize that's going on inside of them.
Dori Durbin: So this makes me wonder, it goes back to the beginning where you were so passionate about, like, parents fulfilling themselves. If you were to have a parent teach their kid one thing about life, about what they hope for them, what would that be?
Madison Friedman: What comes to my mind [00:19:00] is if you truly believe, if you have the confidence and you have the self-belief that you can do whatever you set your mind to, then it will actually come to life. Like, like I said prior to, in this world, I really believe that it's you against you. And I think that if you're able to overcome your fears in some way, shape, or form, if you're able to do the hard things, then I really think that you're just able to push yourself and you're able to really s- like showcase and spotlight what makes you special.
Madison Friedman: And I think that once people feel that confidence, that inner confidence, whether it's how you speak to yourself, how you view yourself, I think that that is the most important thing in the world, how you speak to yourself and how you view yourself. And if you can just shut out the rest of the noise, [00:20:00] you are so capable of anything that you want to do.
Madison Friedman: And that goes both ways for the parent and the child. And I think that that's why I love the work that I do. I just, I love being able to shower that sort of mentality and perspective onto the parent who then starts to feel confident and capable and collected and in control. And, and that then transfers right into the child.
Dori Durbin: I think that's beautiful if you had an empowered parent who was showing kids that they can set goals, they can achieve them, they can still be personal, they can still be loving parents doing all the things, i- in my mind it teaches the kids tho- that's, uh, available and an opportunity for me.
Dori Durbin: And if there's one thing that I've learned in doing this podcast it's that we all try to... I love our parents. I love my parents. We try to do better than our parents in some way, right?
Madison Friedman: Absolutely.
Dori Durbin: So, so the kids see that as you are achieving a goal. You are [00:21:00] doing the next thing, and you're learning how to control yourself and when you're frustrated.
Dori Durbin: You're like... there, it's just such a, a crazy and almost scary mirror at sometimes is what our kids see in us is what they believe in them.
Madison Friedman: A mirror is, like, the exact phrase that I would use. And to go along with what you said about how when you're growing up you have things that you want to bring into your new family when you have one, and then you have things that you hope your child never has to experience.
Madison Friedman: But as humans, when we experience those things even prior to having a family of your own- Those experiences, whether they be good, bad, desirable, undesirable, they still show up in certain ways, and in ways that you might not want them to. But what you have to do is you have to face them, you have to confront them, and you have to be honest about what they are.
Madison Friedman: And that's also a part of the work that I do. Like, it's meant to be a little messy. It's meant to be vulnerable. It's meant to be honest. [00:22:00] I, like I said before, I'm not a parent, but I am the child on the other side of the parents that I had, and I want to be that support that I so badly wish that my parents were able to have so that it didn't make me have to grow up so quickly.
Dori Durbin: Well, I can ask you this in, in that way then, because one of the things I wondered about was if a parent does lose their cool, they blow up, they're, they say, "Oh, no. I did the thing I didn't plan on doing or saying," what would you suggest from the kid perspective as far as what the repair process should look like?
Dori Durbin: How would I go about trying to reconnect and show that this is okay this wasn't okay? What... How do I do that?
Madison Friedman: I think that it's just owning it. I think that it would just be too... i'm a firm believer that the truth will always kind of set you free in that sense. And I think that there's ways that you can, regardless of how old your child is, there's ways that you can express [00:23:00] the truth without having it be, like, too grown up.
Madison Friedman: You know? There's ways that you can express that a way that you acted wasn't what you meant, and you hope that even though it happened, you hope that maybe you could give your child some, like, little warnings of, "Oh, if you see Mommy getting to, like, this point," like, you know, like, have a little secret word or something.
Madison Friedman: Like, there are ways where you can kind of say an honest truth in a way that's actually understood by the age of your child, and in a way where you are almost forgiving yourself too. Because I think that that's a huge thing when a parent blows up on a child, or even just an educator, a babysitter.
Madison Friedman: Whenever somebody that is older blows up on a little kid, you always leave it being like, "Why did I do that? I should have never done that." Like they didn't do anything, or at [00:24:00] least on purpose they didn't do anything. So it's like- As an adult you have to give yourself a little bit of grace- Mm-hmm ... in the sense that not, you're not perfect, they're not perfect.
Madison Friedman: You responded and reacted in a way that was not acceptable, not perfect, and by just verbalizing it and vocalizing the fact that you are sorry you acted in a way that wasn't nice, you acted in a way that wasn't appropriate, you're also kind of setting yourself free- ... in, in some degree from having that really bad mom or dad guilt.
Madison Friedman: Or just adult guilt in general.
Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah, I remember times where I, I actually went back to my kids and asked them more or less to forgive me, and I, I remembered saying, "I had a really stressful drive home, and then I got home and I tripped over something, and I came in the door and it was, the house was a mess, and then I blew up."
Dori Durbin: And, and-
Madison Friedman: Like a domino effect.
Dori Durbin: Yeah, yeah. It's like one thing on top of the [00:25:00] next. Sometimes, and you're, like I was talking about the boiler. You know, like the pressure is just too much. You can't keep it in. And then you're like, "Oh, man, that was, that was so dumb. Why?" You know, like, "That's not what I wanted."
Dori Durbin: And I went to my kids and I said, "I'm so sorry. I am not gonna, um, tell you that you did anything wrong. It was, that was me. Mommy was already irritated, and that was just like one more thing." I said, "I'm sorry. That's not how I want to act." And I think that's the cool thing about knowing, like, what your triggers are, what your, what you're bringing with you to the p- you know, to the game, so to speak.
Dori Durbin: Yeah. Is, um, being able to recognize that and maybe share it, depending on how old they are, but, but maybe just package it as, "That was something I, I'm not proud of, and this is maybe what I should've done." I mean, that's kinda what I did. Not that was me. Yeah. But it just felt better to me to be super honest about it and keep that relationship going than to be like, "Well, I [00:26:00] was right, and let's move on."
Dori Durbin: You know? Yeah. That would, that hurt a lot more to me.
Madison Friedman: It also, as a, as a kid, to see your parent mess up a little bit, like it's reassuring that not everything needs to be perfect or go perfectly. It could help a lot of expectations that maybe they have internally that they're not communicating. Like, watching people mess up, this is your first time on this planet.
Madison Friedman: This is your first time being a parent. This is your first time with your child, you know? And vice versa, it's their first time, too. So it's like to see people make mistakes, and then to own them, it's so, it shows so much integrity on your behalf, and also it shows that it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to...
Madison Friedman: We can't be so harsh on ourselves all the time. All you can do is- what feels authentic to you in regards to repairment, oh, right. [00:27:00] That's what I believe.
Dori Durbin: I believe that too, 100%. Madison, I know there's parents listening right now that are like, "Oh, man. I really have more questions. Dori didn't hit them all.
Dori Durbin: I'd love to talk to Madison and find out these answers." So where are the best places for them to find you and get ahold of you?
Madison Friedman: So I have Instagram and TikTok if you're interested in what I'm saying. Um, it's @elevatedmindsgc, and then my website is www.elevatedmindsgrowthcenter.com.
Dori Durbin: And can they email you as part of that, too?
Dori Durbin: Yes. Like, get in touch with you with questions?
Madison Friedman: On my e- on my website there is my email there, and then if you wanted to join a newsletter, I have a newsletter, and I have different parent resources, and child resources too.
Dori Durbin: You have a great website with lots of resources. Thank you. They definitely should check that out for sure.
Dori Durbin: For sure. Well, Madison, I have one question that I always ask towards the very end, and we are there. Um, and the question is, if a parent is currently hearing themselves in the [00:28:00] conversation we're having, and they're saying to themselves, "This is a lot to change. This is, , overwhelming," what is one or a series of small action steps that they could do to just reduce some of their parenting stress even today right after the podcast?
Madison Friedman: Yeah. So my three favorite things that I love to tell parents, small little micro shifts that they can start doing right now, is the first is to say less. No more over-explaining. Kids stop lif- listening after, like, the fourth word anyway. So if there's one thing that you're trying to do, like an in- instruction or something, instead of explaining the whole thing from A to Z, just say what A is.
Madison Friedman: Like, "Let's put our shoes on." Not like, "Let's put our shoes on and go to the car so we can go to preschool," whatever. Just, "Let's put shoes on." The second one, and gamify it too if you need to. Kids love a good little challenge. Like, "Oh, I wonder if Johnny [00:29:00] can get to the car in 30 seconds?" Like that sort of thing, especially if you're, like, under a time constraint.
Madison Friedman: That's one thing. Another thing is to- I, going along with saying less, don't expect one moment to hold, like, five different lessons. It's okay to just say what you need to say or stop a behavior that might be a little dangerous or unsafe. It's okay to just stop it and do what you need to do to stop it, and come back when the moment has kind of cooled off to be able to kind of explain or s- hold your expectation or your boundary or whatever.
Madison Friedman: You don't have to do it all in that one moment, and sometimes it's actually better to let them cool off and actually be able to take in the information that you're saying. So that's number two. And three, I challenge you to kind of see if number one worked by saying less. I challenge you to see if you can do it for, like, a whole [00:30:00] week, where you challenge yourself to not over-explain, to just say it.
Madison Friedman: Like, give yourself that game, and take notes. See what works, what doesn't work, what instruction might work when you say less, what instruction it fails on. But take those cer- certain notes, and really stay committed to actually being consistent with it for, like, a whole week. So yeah.
Dori Durbin: I love it.
Dori Durbin: And that's simple enough, and you gamified it so that everybody can enjoy it and- Yeah ... keep track of progress, which is what we're really looking for is progress.
Madison Friedman: Yeah.
Dori Durbin: Yeah. Great. Oh, Madison, thank you so much for being on the podcast today, for giving us so many valuable tips, and being really honest about where parents are and where they could go.
Dori Durbin: I think that connection and the communication is so, so integral to parents and families.
Madison Friedman: Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed speaking with you, and I had the best time.
Dori Durbin: Aw. [00:31:00] Thank you. Listeners, one other thing for you. If you would like to help shape and have your opinions on children's books that parent experts and other professionals create, I would love for you to join the free That's Good Parenting club.
Dori Durbin: As a member, you can preview upcoming children's books, vote on ideas, uh, share your feedback, and even join launch teams, which is super exciting. Um, you'll find a link in today's show notes. So that is a wrap for today's That's Good Parenting. I hope you can use one of these skills that Madison mentioned.
Dori Durbin: Pause at the end of the day and step back and say, "Now that moment, that was good parenting." We'll talk soon.
