Dori Durbin: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to That's Good Parenting, the podcast where we look for simple steps to reduce your parenting stress. I'm your host, Dorrie Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, and of course, podcaster. I help parenting experts take their biggest ideas and kid-size them into children's books and content so that families can continue learning long after this conversation ends.

Dori Durbin: One thing that I've learned through my work is that there are so many concepts that actually aren't too difficult for children. They're often too difficult for adults to explain. And when we simplify those ideas into language kids can understand, families tend to have calmer, more meaningful conversations all around.

Dori Durbin: Today's guest has spent her career helping parents do exactly that. Dr. Lindsay Emerson is a clinical psychologist, mom of four, and founder of Parenting With Psychology. Through her practical research-backed approach, she helps parents replace self-doubt while building stronger relationships and reducing everyday power [00:01:00] struggles.

Dori Durbin: Dr. Lindsay, welcome to the show.

Lindsay Emmerson: Thanks so much, Dorrie. Appreciate that beautiful introduction.

Dori Durbin: Well, you've done the work. I just get to report it. So I'm very, very happy to have you here. And one of the things that I love to ask at the very beginning is why you got into the field that you got into. What is the passion behind what you're doing right now?

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah, so it has changed a little bit over the course of my career, but I've always been fascinated by psychology. You know, I, I was one of those people who went into college knowing their major and stuck with it and got through all the training as, succinctly as even possible. Um, and and I have to attribute that to a family history of mental illness, and I have a brother with schizophrenia, and so I had a really early exposure to how our mental health and our behavior affects our entire life and our family.

Lindsay Emmerson: And that's where my love of, of psychology came from. And I started off studying more in that area, [00:02:00] in severe mental illness, and then pivoted to working more with children and families, um, especially after I had my own family, and it became so clear how my psychology background benefited me as a parent and how most parents were not given just this foundational background on how you can bring pieces of psychology into your parenting in such a simple and tangible way, and have such meaningful outcomes for your kids and for your family dynamic.

Dori Durbin: That's beautiful. It's so true too, because I think with your background, having that, all of the base, the knowledge, and then turning around and having kids, you're probably like, "Oh, I know I know what I wanna do, but I probably shouldn't do that because I know the psychology behind it," right?

Lindsay Emmerson: Yes. Well, and you know, the biggest thing for me was knowing exactly what my parenting should look like.

Lindsay Emmerson: It doesn't mean it was like that every day, and it didn't come initially. It took time. It took effort. It took learning [00:03:00] the actual strategies that help you to get there each day. But to have that vision and to know very clearly, "This is the type of parent I want to be," and I know it's backed by research, decades of psychology research, that is such a comforting piece of knowledge that many parents don't have.

Lindsay Emmerson: You know, they go into this kind of blind. We get so much more training for how to birth a child than to actually raise a child. And so a lot of parents go in with this uncertainty and kinda trying to figure it out and trial and error and listening to different sources of information, and it can get confusing.

Lindsay Emmerson: And for me, having that guiding light, that North Star, if you will, that came from my knowledge of psychology, uh, has just been so comforting to me.

Dori Durbin: It's really, uh, there's so many things that you just said that really resonate with me. I think looking and trying to figure out what you want as a, being a parent I personally, when we got into parenting, I knew what I didn't want.

Dori Durbin: I didn't have as big a vision of where I could be [00:04:00] simply because I was relying on what was around me and what I knew from my own experience. Not that that was bad, Mom, I love you. But when it comes down to knowing what capabilities you could grow, that's really hard. And I do feel like a lot of parents get really lost in the muck of all of the advice, and it's a lot of times contradictory advice.

Dori Durbin: So I feel like your work helps to quiet kind of the noise that's around parents. So what is it that makes us second-guess ourselves, and how do we get kind of righted again?

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah. Touching on something you just said, Dori I really like how you said you know what you don't wanna do as a parent, and oftentimes that is a really good starting point.

Lindsay Emmerson: You know, I like to encourage parents I work with to go to the playground and watch other parents. And not for the sake of being judgemental, but in your mind, give them a plus or give them a minus and say, "This, if, in the way that I want to parent my [00:05:00] child, this is not consistent, this is consistent."

Lindsay Emmerson: And it really helps you. They're modeling for you different behaviors, right? We learn a lot through watching, through observational learning. So they're modeling different parenting styles, and you get to pick and choose what feels right for you, what looks right, how their child's responding, and what you think you want to then replicate in your own parenting.

Lindsay Emmerson: So I love that you said that. Um, circling back to your question, let me see if I can get that one back. So, so what is really different about my approach is that it's a whole system. So I'm a very organized type A person, and so when I work with parents, it's not just saying, "Hey, let's work on this," or, "Let's take today's problem," or, um, some really specialized thing.

Lindsay Emmerson: Instead, we're putting everything into this larger framework. So everything from looking at the overarching parenting philosophy and then bringing it down into what I call the five C's to amazing parenting. [00:06:00] And so it's the five areas of parenting, these concepts that come up throughout every day, every parenting challenge.

Lindsay Emmerson: And it's the five concepts that make meaningful change in your family dynamics, in your child's behavior, and their long-term trajectory. And so I came up with this system because it lets parents look at everything in such an organized way. So my child is refusing to brush their teeth, or my child is talking back, or my child is having poor manners.

Lindsay Emmerson: Whatever it is, you can look at it through this system and say, "Okay, well, what, how do I wanna address that? You know, where do I think the area that's gonna make the most change in this is?" And a checklist, these are the things I should be doing in each of the five C's. And so, that, that's h- what's unique about my system.

Lindsay Emmerson: And to your point of how some parents are just feeling led astray is, especially with social media today, you're picking up on these quick, 30-second, 90-minute tips, and it's this one today, that one [00:07:00] tomorrow con- conflicting advice the next day, and it gets so confusing. But if you can bring it all into this structured approach and really commit to using this one approach, it is just so clarifying in your parenting practice.

Dori Durbin: Well, tell me about the five Cs, and I don't know if there's a way that you could give us an example. So I thought about, um, even at the playground when your, your kid doesn't wanna leave- ... and they're throwing a fit and you're mortified because all the parents are doing the minus over your head. How do we use the five Cs?

Dori Durbin: Like, what does that look like?

Lindsay Emmerson: Love it. So I'll just quickly give you all five Cs, and then we can run through that great example. So the five Cs to amazing parenting, as I call them, and I use the term amazing, I'm a positive, optimistic person, but I also use it to replace the, the word authoritative.

Lindsay Emmerson: So in psychology research, there are four distinct parenting styles, and the, the two that pop up a lot [00:08:00] as sort of extremes are authoritarian, the strict, because I said so, yelling, threats, harsh punishment. That's authoritarian. And then at the very far end of that is permissive. Oh, I don't wanna do anything to rupture a relationship, and so I'm always going to say yes, and I'm not gonna hold boundaries, and whatever they want, have as many cookies as you want.

Lindsay Emmerson: So those are the two extremes, okay? And what these decades of psychology research show us is that there is a middle ground that is the ideal parenting style, and that is called authoritative parenting, a term coined by Diana Baumrind, who was amazing for this field. But I don't love the term authoritative.

Lindsay Emmerson: It doesn't roll off the tongue. It sounds too much like authoritarian. So in my coaching, I just replace that term with amazing parenting. So when I say the five Cs to amazing parenting, that's what we're doing, is we're finding the perfect balance between support and structure that's going to help your child thrive and make your [00:09:00] parenting experience so much more enjoyable.

Lindsay Emmerson: So the five Cs are communication, consistency, choices and checkpoints, and that's looking at developmental ch- cho- checkpoints, so we're talking about developmental stages, and then consequences, and check yourself. And so a lot falls into each of those categories, but those are the five concepts. So let's look at your example, Joyce.

Lindsay Emmerson: So you're at the playground. You said, I think it was you said, "It's time to leave," right? And they are not complying, right? "No, I

Dori Durbin: want to stay longer." Oh, I know. They're throwing a fit. Yep. Yes. Exactly.

Lindsay Emmerson: Probably every parent listening has had that experience if your child's over age one and able to move and talk.

Lindsay Emmerson: So very universal. Love it. Okay, so communication. Okay, so should you have a long, drawn-out discussion explaining why we need to leave and rationalizing it? Should you yell? Should you do all these other things? No, they're not going to be effective, and [00:10:00] they're not going to help your parent-child relationship.

Lindsay Emmerson: When it comes to communication, in a situation where you have given a, uh, request, okay, and you have said, "We need to leave the playground in five minutes," you want to clearly state that. You want to give them transition warnings. So you're saying, "Okay, it's five minutes. Okay, we're one minute from leaving, so would you like to do the slide one more time or would you like to go on the spinny thing one more time?"

Lindsay Emmerson: And so you're communicating, making it very clear that it's going to happen. This is a a plan that is going to keep moving regardless of how you feel about it, and you're doing it calmly. So calm, clear, and caring are kind of the basis of that communication category. Consistency. Now, this is a huge one that parents often miss.

Lindsay Emmerson: And so if you say, "We're leaving in five minutes," you need to consistently leave in five minutes. So how [00:11:00] often do parents get caught up talking with another parent and say, "Oh, gosh, it's already been half an hour." So then you tell your child, "It's time to go." And they say, "What do you mean? You said we're leaving."

Lindsay Emmerson: But then you never followed through. So they lose that trust in your words, and your actions become less predictable. And so consistency is huge. If you can stick with the timeline, it will help you out every time in the future that you say, "We're leaving the park," or anything is gonna happen in five minutes, bedtime, putting shoes on, whatever.

Lindsay Emmerson: So that consistency is key. Choices and checkpoints. So here we're thinking about your child's developmental level, and I rely a lot on Jean Piaget, who was a cognitive psychologist, and he really outlined what the brain is capable at different ages. So the parents I work with have a general understanding of his theory, so they know, okay, my child's brain is able to understand this at this age, and my child's brain struggles with that at that age.

Lindsay Emmerson: So let's say you have a two-year-old and you're [00:12:00] leaving the playground. You're not gonna do a lot of talking. You're gonna keep the words short or the phrases short. You're gonna make very clear communication, and you're going to understand that your child may have challenges with emotion regulation and their frustration about leaving the playground.

Lindsay Emmerson: And so you're going to meet them with support and empathy, but you're not going to change your mind because they start throwing a fit Consequences. Oh, actually, let me just circle back. Another core thing in choices and checkpoints is trying to give your child as much autonomy as possible. And so that's where that question of, "Do you wanna do the slide or do you wanna do the spinny thing?"

Lindsay Emmerson: comes into play. So you're imposing a rule, we're leaving in five minutes, but you're giving them a choice so that they have some agency, they feel more control, they feel like it's more of a team effort even though they're following your rule. Consequences come into play. Let's say they throw that full fit, and so they're flailing, they're not walking to the car, and all that [00:13:00] jazz.

Lindsay Emmerson: You have a choice. Do you wanna say, "Okay, fine. We'll stay for five more minutes"? Or do you want to say something much more clear that uses an if-then consequence? "I understand you're upset to leave the playground. Our five minutes is up. You can walk to the car nicely or I can carry you." And then you follow through on that, so that's the consequence.

Lindsay Emmerson: And so if they continue to flail, you pick them up and you walk to the car. And the beauty of this is if you begin properly implementing consequences early in your parenting when your child is two and you can pick them up, and it's uncomfortable and it might be a scene, and you may have to do it a few times for them to really learn, but if you do it early and consistently, your child learns when you make a very clear statement if-then, that you're going to follow through and it's going to happen.

Lindsay Emmerson: So it's not like they're gonna be 10 and you're gonna be picking them up 'cause they learned this years ago. So the [00:14:00] earlier, the better. And then finally, check yourself. And this is where a lot of coping skills come into play for parents. And so we talk about a variety of ways that you can use the thoughts you tell yourself, the behaviors that you do, and your, your day-to-day practices to set you up for success so that you're not losing your cool in that moment and yelling, "Just get to the car."

Lindsay Emmerson: We're not doing that. We're saying, "Our five minutes is up. It's time to go. Would you like me to carry you or would you like to walk there?" And in a nutshell, that's applying the five Cs to this playground issue, and it makes a world of difference. When you have this system, you know what to touch on in each of those core categories.

Lindsay Emmerson: And when implemented consistently, and especially if you start early, ideally in the first year, but in the first five years is great, then your kids really learn the routine quickly.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Oh my gosh, this is awesome. Right? I was thinking each point of these, there's so many questions running through my mind.

Dori Durbin: So [00:15:00] with the ages and stages, when they work with you, is that something that you, you kind of go through and you teach them? Like, "Look, at this age, really, they, they don't know any different as far as, like, how to express what they're feeling." 'Cause I know emotions are, like, really hard things to teach kids, and especially- Yeah

Dori Durbin: controlling emotions.

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah, emot- uh, un- first of all, just being able to recognize the emotions you're having, then being able to label them, then being able to control them huge brain power goes into that. And so part of it is just helping parents to understand that emotion regulation takes a long time to develop.

Lindsay Emmerson: We're not talking about full development until somewhere in the mid-20s, and that can be mind-blowing for parents to learn. The other one that's really big for parents to learn is when logical reasoning sets in, and really, w- we're, when we're talking about four-year-olds and seven-year-olds, they're saying

Lindsay Emmerson: Parents are saying things like, "Oh, she's just doing it to make me angry." But when we talk through the stages and we give examples, they come to realize, no, it's just her brain isn't yet able to [00:16:00] process this in this way. For, for younger kids, age two to seven, they don't even have that perspective-taking to be able to say, "I'm gonna do this 'cause that's gonna make mom mad."

Lindsay Emmerson: They don't even have that ability yet. They're so egocentric, not selfish, but just self-focused, so they really can only see from their own viewpoint in that age. And so even that is just eye-opening. It really helps parents to come with a whole different perspective on their child's behavior. Y- it's a, a phrase that I like to use that you may have heard before is your child's not giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time.

Lindsay Emmerson: And so your five-year-old is not trying to make you angry. They just really cannot control what's going on in their body right now, and you're getting the worst of it because you are their secure place. You're their safe, secure attachment figure. And as frustrating as it can be that you get their worst, it's actually one of the greatest compliments of parenting that your child feels safe enough to [00:17:00] do that with you.

Dori Durbin: You know, I thought right away of a spouse situation where, you know, you feel comfortable enough with your spouse or your best friend to really be honest and dump everything, and they're doing the same thing with you. We just are quick to take it personally and think it's an attack.

Lindsay Emmerson: Hmm. Yes, that is a great comparison.

Lindsay Emmerson: So same idea. And that's the whole, you just hit on the core of attachment parenting. So you are biologically primed to form this secure attachment bond with your child. It's a give and a take, and they have cues, and you read them, and, and then they give back to you with their cute smiles and all this. So there's this whole thing, and the idea is that you are consistently warm and responsive to your child's needs.

Lindsay Emmerson: Doesn't have to be insane. It's not 100% of the time. It doesn't mean you can never work. Uh, all this, people take it too far. It means that a majority of the time you are consistently responsive and warm with your child. And once you form that basis, and especially over the first three years, a really [00:18:00] critical window in the eight to nine-month range, you have this secure attachment bond with your child.

Lindsay Emmerson: That forms the kind of blueprint for their relationships for the rest of their life. And so when they have their b- new best friend, when they have a boyfriend, when they later on get married, they're going to take that, what they know, that kind of archetype for a re- a, a positive, healthy relationship, and they're going to apply that to all these new relationships and then that they have a new kind of attachment bond with their longtime partner one day where, like you said, they can have an off day, they can show up depleted and not be their best, and they know that their partner's still going to unconditionally support them because they now have that secure attachment with them.

Dori Durbin: Oh, my goodness. That's such a huge thing. I'm just thinking, like, down the road, like, what you're doing from one to five not to put pressure on people, but it's so huge. It is huge.

Lindsay Emmerson: It is, it is huge. And so [00:19:00] what I, I like to do, Dorie, is balance opening parents' eyes to the importance of what they're doing with the research that shows that it doesn't have to be extreme.

Lindsay Emmerson: There is strong research to show roughly 50% of the time is what you need to hit for that secure attachment, and that doesn't mean you need to spend 50% of your time with your child. That means when you're with your child, you need to be at, a pretty closely attuned to them 50% of the time. So when you have an infant and they're crying and you can't figure it out, I've changed them, I've fed them, I've tried to put them to bed, I don't know what's going wrong , you don't need to freak out.

Lindsay Emmerson: That can just fall in that other 50% of the time when you did your best and it didn't work out. But your goal is to have at least 50% where you're figuring it out, you're warm and responsive, and then they learn, hey, this is my person. They're here for me. They understand me. They're gonna help me when I need help.

Lindsay Emmerson: They're my safe place.

Dori Durbin: I love that. And again, back to the, you know, you don't have to be perfect. That's [00:20:00] a huge relief. Mm-hmm. Uh, because when you think about that responsibility and the formation that's occurring in their expectation of people, of themselves, of the world, like, that's kinda scary. So hearing that 50%, that's doable.

Dori Durbin: That, we can do that.

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah, exactly. And it helps you to kind of figure out on a daily basis how much do I have to give? 'Cause some parents think they have to be uber happy and bubbly and plan everything and do all this and, but you try to do that and then two days later, "Oh, I just can't do any of this anymore."

Lindsay Emmerson: So what you have to do is find the level that you can meet consistently, because above all, consistency is key.

Dori Durbin: So let's talk about consistency in parenting. When you were giving the scenario of, um, the kid knowing that they had five minutes left and then the parent starting to talk, I thought of two things.

Dori Durbin: The first thing I think you covered, but w- it wouldn't hurt to revisit. I thought of parents thinking in their mind's eye that their kid sees an opportunity and is [00:21:00] manipulating them into more time, right? But probably a young, young child is not doing that from what you're saying. And then the other thing is if our verbiage is different, if our behavior is different, that's some of our consistency, right?

Lindsay Emmerson: Mm-hmm. So

Dori Durbin: what does that look like to be consistent even with the verbiage and-

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah, that's a great point. To the first question, so you're right, a young child is not manipulating you, and if they, if you start talking and they're off playing and then they get shocked when you say it's time to leave, that's because their brain is in an, a, a s- focused attention state and they completely forgot that they were leaving 'cause it's been half an hour now.

Lindsay Emmerson: And so we have to understand that they need support with transitions and shifting their attention and being able to deal with the distress of leaving a fun activity. Transitions are very challenging. So we, so it's not them giving us a hard time. It's us, they need to support them through that transition.

Lindsay Emmerson: And if you've it's not to say that you can never continue chatting with a [00:22:00] parent at the park past the five minutes. What it does mean is you wanna consistently communicate that to your child. So you say, "Oh, you know what, sweetie? I know we were supposed to leave in five minutes. I'm just actually in the middle of this discussion with Susan, and I would love to stay a little longer.

Lindsay Emmerson: Are you okay with staying at the park for a little longer?" And so then they know, "Okay, this expectation has changed. Now I can go back to playing." And then you wanna start over with the five-minute warning. So you do wanna make sure that you support them through that transition. Say, "Okay, this time I promise we are all done.

Lindsay Emmerson: We are gonna be leaving in five minutes, so make sure you choose your favorite activities." So you do that whole transition again, and then that consistency sort of comes back. And so you bring it back into play, but you allow for some real-life flexibility. And then in terms of your words that you use, 100%.

Lindsay Emmerson: So one thing that is so tiring to parents is when kids ask the same thing over and over again, and they have to try to come up with a different explanation. And to some degree, you do wanna [00:23:00] continue to answer your child's questions if they're changing. But if it's just badgering, you can use a just consistent blanket response, or you can even Parrot back to them and say, "You know, I think that's the same question you asked before.

Lindsay Emmerson: I'm may not be understanding correctly, but I've already answered that one. Do you have another question?" And so you can use consistency when there's repetition, but also leave open that door for them s- to be more creative in how they ask a question. Um, but consistency comes up so much in communication in the way that I work with parents, um, in terms of having family values that are clearly communicated to your children, and all of the behavioral corrections, the teaching moments, all relate back to those family values.

Lindsay Emmerson: And consistency in terms of following through on any consequences. And then e- even just s- consistency [00:24:00] in terms of your daily routine, having a consistently early bedtime, which is huge for promoting better behavior. Consistent eating schedules. I mean, we talk about consistency in all aspects of parenting because it's so important.

Dori Durbin: You know, you made me think of something. I've seen parents who change their game plan based on what other parents are doing or what the, the other parents are allowing to happen. So for instance like maybe they're supposed to follow through on that five minutes, but they're like I guess because so-and-so's family is staying, we can stay a little bit longer."

Dori Durbin: That's again another consistency thing that's gonna shoot you down later, right?

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah. Or if there's something that's not allowed at your house, but they say it's allowed at their house. It ideally you would have consistency across environments, especially if we're talking about a co-parenting situation where you and, and your child's other parent have different homes, or if you have, grandma or a babysitter coming in regularly.

Lindsay Emmerson: And ideally even across daycare environments you have consistency in your core values and the way that you're responding to really [00:25:00] important behavioral issues.

Dori Durbin: So if they've messed up, like already our listeners are listening and they're like, "Oh, I do that all the time." Like, I you've busted me right now.

Dori Durbin: I've, you're calling me out. Is it fixable even though that we've been doing it all the time? Yes.

Lindsay Emmerson: Absolutely. So if you take a child who is learning a new rule for the first time, they're going to learn it more quickly if you are consistent from the beginning. If you take a child who has had inconsistency in some sort of rule, it's gonna take longer, but it's very doable.

Lindsay Emmerson: And the most important thing is once you commit to it, just be consistent at that point. Now, that's not to say you can never change a rule. You know, you might have a screen time rule, and then later on they present some very logical, well-thought-out argument, and you might say, "Huh, I think you're right. Hey, let's sit down and let's have a family meeting.

Lindsay Emmerson: Let's adjust our family screen time schedule." And then you start implementing the new rule, but you do that consistently. So it's not that we have to be str- strict and rigid for [00:26:00] the sake of consistency. It's that consistency should be interwoven throughout our parenting as much as possible and reasonable, and is possible to change.

Lindsay Emmerson: What you wanna do is pick the few core behaviors where you feel like your inconsistency may be leading to the most trouble in your interactions with your kids. So if it's transitions, for example, if you say, "Oh, we do always have a hard time getting back to bedtime," or if we always have time leaving the park, then you say, "Okay, I feel like maybe it's the transitions where I need to focus on my consistency first."

Dori Durbin: Oh, I love that, that clarity of figuring out exactly where it's falling apart.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I also, I asked you a few questions before the podcast, and one of them, you had this statement that I thought was just so brilliant. You said, "All feelings are welcome, but not all behaviors are." And I feel like when you're having those meltdown moments, this is really important to parents.

Dori Durbin: So can you talk about that just a little bit?

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah. Actually, this has been huge on my social media platforms [00:27:00] lately. There have been a lot of questions about hitting and biting, not just other kids, but parents. And so y- I'm seeing parents who are feeling caught because they want to have this ability to teach their child that this behavior is not okay, but they also want their child to feel like they're supported and understood.

Lindsay Emmerson: So when it comes to safety, respect, and responsibility, those are hard lines, and in that order. So if your child's having a lot of trouble, trouble with safety related behaviors, focus on that. Come back to respect and responsibility, but work down as their behavior improves. So safety, it, so if your child is having a tantrum, they're hitting, kicking, biting you, scratching you, all these things that happen very commonly, especially in younger kids age two to three if this is an issue, then you wanna draw a hard line on that.

Lindsay Emmerson: And it doesn't mean being mean about it or overly firm about it. It means being extremely consistent in enforcing that rule. [00:28:00] And so when your child is melting down, "Hey, it is totally okay for you to feel that way. I understand that's so upsetting that he took your toy or, you know, you fell and hit your head.

Lindsay Emmerson: Totally understand. It is not okay to hurt me. Safety is important for your body and my body." And if needed, parents can sort of put up a little, uh, block with their hands to keep their child from hitting them. In more extreme cases, sometimes you need to do sort of a bear hug around your child so their limbs are not free to flail and hit you.

Lindsay Emmerson: Some kids you can put you can say, "If you keep hitting me, I'm going to put you down. Can you stop hitting me or do I need to put you down?" And so if they keep hitting you, say, "Okay, I'm gonna put you down now." And some kids will stay down. Some will come back to you and keep hitting, and then you do need to, again, do the block with your hand or a bear hug.

Lindsay Emmerson: Um, sometimes kids need to be put in a separate room. There are d- depending on the kid, there are different ways as long as they're safe that you can handle that. But you really wanna be [00:29:00] very clear that physical safety is important for everybody. And that's part of your family value structure again. So it would come back to that core set of family values.

Lindsay Emmerson: And so you're calmly, as calmly as possible and clearly stating this, but you're enforcing that rule. Um, and so with that's kind of an extreme example of that concept of all feelings are welcome, but not all behaviors are. Or in, in fact, I had a mom I was working with just earlier today who said that her daughter said some really hurtful things, like, "I wish I had a different mommy," because of some of the rules that she was enforcing.

Lindsay Emmerson: And we talked through are these, are these rules are valid? Are they fair? Why is she saying that in this context? And so we helped to get an understanding of w- particularly what made her feel upset in that moment. But the, the core value here is that we are respectful. And so you are welcome to feel that way.

Lindsay Emmerson: You can talk to me about that, but the way you're saying it is not okay. We would need to say that in a kind [00:30:00] way

Dori Durbin: Wow, that's awesome. First of all, being able to have that conversation with your child and have them really... I mean, they might not understand immediately, but that consistency over time, they will understand it.

Lindsay Emmerson: Mm-hmm.

Dori Durbin: And then having that, um, you're sort of giving the parent the right to be able to say, "This isn't safe. This isn't something I'm gonna tolerate." Which actually w- when you, was it check-in for parents? Is that, was that the-

Lindsay Emmerson: Oh, check yourself. Check

Dori Durbin: yourself. Check yourself. So if you're in that situation where you are being attacked and you start to have the thoughts randomly running through your head, how do you counteract them, um, when you're thinking to yourself, "Well, I, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do.

Dori Durbin: Obviously, my child doesn't like me," or something like that. You know- Mm-hmm ... that, whatever's running through your mind at that moment.

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah. So I have a wh- a whole sheet of coping strategies that I teach my parents. Some of my favorite ones, the ver- I mean, the very initial one that everybody can benefit in every challenging parenting moment is one deep breath, and this [00:31:00] really has a real physiological component.

Lindsay Emmerson: It taps into the vagus nerve. And so taking one deep inhale in and one deep exhale out truly can help to calm your nervous system, and that's always the first step, okay? So that allows you to choose to respond rather than react to these challenging parenting moments. And then after that, we work on identifying those thoughts, so we get comfortable with catching the thoughts that you have in your head where say, "Oh, I'm failing," or, "I did this wrong."

Lindsay Emmerson: And we start catching those and saying, "What, is this really a valid thought, or is this just what my brain's tricking me into thinking right now?" We often have a kind of mantras that everybody has their own mantra that works best for them, like saying to yourself over and over again, "My child is not giving me a hard time.

Lindsay Emmerson: My child is having a hard time." So a lot of people like that one. There can be a visual element. So some people like to imagine theirselves as super moms stepping up in this most [00:32:00] trying moment, and you can picture your cape. And so while you're, blocking your child from hitting, you can think, "This is my super mom power right now.

Lindsay Emmerson: I'm staying calm even though my child is hitting me." So there are all these different strategies you can use in conjunction, and kind of you work through the list and figure out what works best for you, because different brains work different ways. And it gives you this, this superpower really of being able to stay calm in those moments that are most trying.

Lindsay Emmerson: And the reason we need to stay calm is most importantly to help your child co-regulate. So they are really borrowing from your nervous system. And so when you stay calm, even if inside you're not feeling calm, maybe your heart's racing and your head's having these thoughts, but if you can portray an element of calm outside, keep your voice calm- Keep your body calm.

Lindsay Emmerson: Your child can borrow from that, and that's going to help them to regain their normal steady state much faster. Also, you're [00:33:00] modeling for them, hey, big emotions can be overwhelming and scary, but they don't need to make us lose our control, that it is possible to stay in control, and that's the whole concept of emotion regulation.

Lindsay Emmerson: So it takes a long time to learn, but you help them by showing them that it's possible.

Dori Durbin: So I immediately had the thought of, okay, our listener is back who's saying, "I messed up already." This is something, this is something, though, that can happen even if you've already made the mistakes.

Lindsay Emmerson: Absolutely.

Lindsay Emmerson: Every time that you succeed, and no par- no amazing parent gets this right every time. Everybody's gonna lose their cool. I have yelled at my kids. I'm not perfect, so, and you don't have to be. The idea is that every time you get this right, you kind of deposit into your relationship account with your child.

Lindsay Emmerson: And the more you do that over time, the stronger the relationship, the more you're helping to teach them what a healthy relationship looks like, how to manage their own emotions. And [00:34:00] for all your listeners who are thinking, "Oh gosh, I need to do a lot more of that," it's okay. If you have these moments when you do not respond that way, there's actually a lot of research to show how important the, uh, it's called rupture and repair in the research, this process is where you have a moment with your child and you think, "Ugh, I snapped.

Lindsay Emmerson: I said something I shouldn't have." When you later, once you're both calm enough, you come back and you have that repair relationship and you say, "Hey, gosh, I really shouldn't have said that, and I'm sorry that I did this," or whatever, and you acknowledge, and you ideally check in with them, say, you know, "What can I do to kinda help make this right?

Lindsay Emmerson: And how do you think I should handle that differently?" And you, you'd approach it as a problem-solving collaborative process. The more you do that, the stronger your relationship is. So really whichever outcome happens, you can make this a positive parenting moment.

Dori Durbin: No, it's interesting 'cause you're talking about co- collaboration [00:35:00] there, and choices.

Dori Durbin: And so one of the things that I've always heard people fight with giving kids choices is, does it give them too much power? Does it, of- kind of crack the, the seal between adult being in charge and the kid being in charge? What do you say about that? I'm super curious.

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah, so, so two thoughts.

Lindsay Emmerson: So number one, you wanna be very clear on what choices you're giving them. Kids do need choices. If you don't give them choices, they're gonna feel completely stifled, so they will then be more resistant to following your requests, right? And so you need to set them up for successfully complying by giving them choices.

Lindsay Emmerson: But you don't need to give them choices in everything. So you need to be really thoughtful about what choices you give. It's not, "Should we brush teeth or shouldn't we brush teeth?" It's, "Oh, do you wanna brush first or floss first?" And so it's very clear that something is going to happen when it's something that matters.

Lindsay Emmerson: Now, if you're, if you're just [00:36:00] having free play time at the park or whatever, give choices everywhere, right? Build up all that autonomy. But when there's something that you want done, like they have to get dressed, okay? You're leaving in 10 minutes, they have to get dressed. "Okay, it's time to get dressed now.

Lindsay Emmerson: Would you like to wear your yellow shirt or your orange shirt?" And it doesn't matter what shirt they wear, so give them the choice. If you serve multiple vegetables at dinner, "Hey, are you in more of a carrot mood or a pea mood today?", right? So giving choices as much as you can. And then the second thing I wanted to say in response to your question, Dorie, is when you consider choices and intentionally give them in your parenting, you always wanna be looking at the long trajectory, right?

Lindsay Emmerson: So at 18, and ideally well before that, you want your child to be a completely independent person capable of making their own choices. When you use an authoritarian, "You're gonna do this because I said so, and there's no choice in this family," when you use that approach, you're training somebody to [00:37:00] need s- direction.

Lindsay Emmerson: And so when you get to 18 and they're o- on their own and they don't have somebody telling them what to do, they often have no idea what to do, or they don't even know what they would want to do because they've never been given the choice to do whatever they want. And so, um, when you ha- when you think about using choices, think about it as a trajectory from their current age to 18.

Lindsay Emmerson: And it doesn't happen overnight, but over time, and ideally by around 16, you want them to be almost fully in charge of their choices, and making good choices. And there are several very specific strategies I use in my program to intentionally train children to make good choices, which helps with compliance and helps to raise kids who are very capable-

Dori Durbin: Ooh, got me curious.

Dori Durbin: Yes. They'll, they'll have to ask you specifically, right?

Lindsay Emmerson: I don't know if we have time to cover all of that today.

Dori Durbin: I, I love this as a parent who has 20-year-olds because, you know, we, we've had lots of decisions where as parents [00:38:00] we're kinda, we're stepping back. You know? I didn't, I didn't have Dr.

Dori Durbin: Lindsey when my kids were little, and I wish I did, but had I done that early, I think I would feel better as a parent because I knew that we've, we've gone through, we've trained them to make these decisions all along. They're making great decisions so far, but that would give me that much more comfort in knowing.

Lindsay Emmerson: Mm-hmm.

Dori Durbin: You know? As my kids get older and older, you know, even down to who they date, who they marry, who, where they live. All of those things that we did, but we probably didn't have that training either. Mm-hmm. And this is an opportunity to do that. So I think-

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah. And a lot of that comes back to open communication with your child.

Lindsay Emmerson: So depending on their developmental level, you wanna be open and honest in the, what they ask about and what you elicit from them. And when, you know, when relationships come up, when anything comes up, we'll talk about, "Oh, this is how I decided that dad was the person I wanted to be with for the rest of my life."

Lindsay Emmerson: And, you know, you don't hold back on that. You, you openly communicate. And, [00:39:00] and it's not a, it's not a, um, a less- I mean, it's not a, a lecture. It's not a lecture. It's more just like a passing life lesson, and when you ta- toss those into daily communication, they pick up on so much over time.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I love it. I love the naturalness of that and, and how it would grow over time, like you said.

Dori Durbin: That's awesome. Okay, I have to ask you, as a children's book illustrator and coach, I love watching parenting experts really take those complex ideas and simplify them. You already know that. But I also notice that a lot of the most powerful lessons are really the ones where the kids are really taking something and identifying themselves with it.

Dori Durbin: So when you think about children whose parents have worked that you've worked with over the years, what's one belief that you hope that they carry into adulthood because of the way that they were parented?

Lindsay Emmerson: Ooh, that, I love the way you worded that. So from the child's perspective, if they were raised by an amazing parent-

Dori Durbin: Mm-hmm

Lindsay Emmerson: they should have [00:40:00] confidence that they can go out and try whatever they want in life, and know that somebody will always be there to support them and be proud of them, beyond just loving them. Be proud of them. They'll know that they're part of the family, they're an important member of that family regardless of what happens.

Lindsay Emmerson: That's a con- uh, concept that was developed by psychologist Carl Rogers called unconditional positive regard, and it comes from this nonjudgmental style of interacting. And you can apply it to a therapy setting, but here we're applying it to a parenting setting. So you approach your relationship with your child in a nonjudgmental way, and they will always know that they are important just for being them, and that gives them the confidence to go out and live their lives and do big things and take adventures, take risks.

Dori Durbin: Love it. Oh, that's perfect. And again, looking down the road, like you were talking about, their trajectory, this is, it's amazing. Like, if there's a parent listening right [00:41:00] now who has a very little little, perfect. Start now. Start now.

Lindsay Emmerson: 100%.

Dori Durbin: So Dr. Lindsey, I know that our parent listeners are looking at this and looking for opportunities.

Dori Durbin: So can you talk a little bit about, um, what you offer your clients and how people can find you in the best places?

Lindsay Emmerson: Sure. Thanks for asking. So I'm kind of all over social media with the same handle thankfully, @drlindseyemerson on Instagram, TikTok. Um, I have a podcast and a Substack called Parenting With Psychology, so those are great places to start if you prefer to listen or read.

Lindsay Emmerson: Um, and then if you are hearing this and you are just saying, "Oh my gosh, this is exactly what I want," I have a free workshop that goes a little deeper on all the five Cs, and you can find that at drlindseyemerson.com/workshop.

Dori Durbin: Awesome. I love your Instagram. I haven't been on your TikTok, but your Instagram is packed with so much good stuff, so.

Lindsay Emmerson: Oh, thanks.

Dori Durbin: Check her out there for sure. So I have one last question for you, which [00:42:00] is an action step. So Dr. Lindsey, if you have one small piece of advice for parents to feel less stressed and enjoy parenting so much more, something they can do right away, what would that be?

Lindsay Emmerson: Ooh, love it.

Lindsay Emmerson: So I would take that concept that we've, we've touched on in several different ways of consistency, and I would narrow it down and say this- Never say to your child an if/then statement that you are not going to follow through on. And so that, "We're leaving the park in one minute," or, if, uh, if you, if you don't stop hitting, I will put you down, right?

Lindsay Emmerson: If you say something with that ultimatum, follow through. Put them down in one minute or after the next hit. So following through is so important for them to learn to trust and respect your words, and it trains them to become good listeners, and it helps with all future behaviors, but you [00:43:00] have to consistently follow through.

Lindsay Emmerson: Now, if you do not think you can follow through, just don't say it. Pick your battles. Try another option. You know, there are quick tricks like humor or distraction, all sorts of things you can try. But if this is an important behavior that you need to change and you have a clear if/then consequence, follow through every time.

Dori Durbin: That's awesome. I love it. I love the fact that you have to think through that first, too, because it's easy to, to make guarantees and then just kind of be, "Ah, I don't really wanna do that after all," so.

Lindsay Emmerson: Yeah. Yeah. That's where that one deep breath comes in. There's a lot you can think about when you're taking that deep breath.

Lindsay Emmerson: How do I wanna handle this? Hmm.

Dori Durbin: Oh, my goodness, Dr. Lindsey, you've given us so many great insights and things that, honestly, that you've given us several action steps, so I thank you so much for this, uh, for your five Cs and for your, just your insight into the world that we live in. Thank you.

Lindsay Emmerson: Oh, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me here.

Dori Durbin: Absolutely. And listeners, if you plan and enjoy [00:44:00] conversations like we had with Dr. Lindsey and myself and you also love to read books, I want to invite you to come to the That's Good Parenting club. Be a part of it. It's a free community where people who love children's books can help shape future books before they're ever even published.

Dori Durbin: Members enjoy early story ideas, sneak peeks at illustrations, behind-the-scenes updates, and the opportunity to help parenting experts just like Dr. Lindsey concise their biggest ideas into children's books that families can enjoy together. So until next time, I hope you find one moment in your day where you can actually pause, take a deep breath, smile and say, "Now that moment, that was good parenting."

Dori Durbin: See you soon.