Dori Durbin: Hello, and welcome to That's Good Parenting, the podcast where we look for simple steps to reduce your parenting stress.

Dori Durbin: I'm your host, Dorrie Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, and podcaster. I help parenting experts and family-focused professionals kid-size their big concepts into children's books so that families can continue learning expert content even after this podcast is over. Parents, let's admit this.

Dori Durbin: Nearly every parent I know has wondered at one time or another, why is this thing so hard for one child and it's not hard for the other one? It can be frustrating. Why can two kids live in the same house with the same rules, and one kid just can't keep their room clean, or put dishes away, or do the things that you're asking for?

Dori Durbin: Well, today's guest is going to help us understand that many of those frustrating moments might not be just about motivation or resistance. It might be just how their brain sees things. Joining t- me today is Kerri Bonnet, executive function coach and veteran [00:01:00] educator, and founder of a brain-first, no-shame approach that helps parents, teachers, and kids themselves understand how kids learn and grow. Kari, welcome. 

Connie Bonnett: Hello, Dorri. Thanks for having me. I love talking about all of this stuff.

Dori Durbin: It's really, really interesting, and I can't wait to get into, like, the meat of it. Mm-hmm. 

Executive Function Basics

Dori Durbin: But before we do, would you tell us a little bit about yourself and who you love to help? 

Connie Bonnett: Thank you. Yes. So yeah, like you said, I'm Kari Bonnett. I am an executive function coach, which usually then I follow with, "Have you heard of executive function?

Connie Bonnett: Do you know what this even means?" Um, this term, executive function, is a strange one. I wish we had something else to call it. But in answer to your question, who do I love to help, students. I love to help students and families. Executive function i- is the fancy brain term for the skills that we use to get things done.

Connie Bonnett: That's sort of the simple definition I like to say. So they're sort of these brain skills that [00:02:00] we use to get our important things done. So it's things like, you mentioned sort of the cleaning the room and the putting the dishes away. Uh, uh, the skills we're talking about and the skills I help families and s- and kids with, organization planning, time management self-monitoring, like noticing when I'm getting distracted.

Connie Bonnett: "Oops, I guess I better get back to w-," you know, those types of skills. So those are all the things we're gonna talk about today. But yes, I work, I work primarily one-on-one with students and families, middle schoolers and up, all the way, right before we started recording, we were talking about college students.

Connie Bonnett: Um, I have lots of college students too, adults too, um, who would describe themselves as, like, struggling with this stuff, like time, and planning, and homework, and organization, and things like that. And focus. That comes up a lot too. So, um, I love helping families. I am a mom too. I'm sure we'll get into that as well, but I love helping kids and families.

Dori Durbin: I [00:03:00] love all this. 

Classroom Lessons and No Shame

Dori Durbin: I, I think it's really amazing how you got into this area after 14 years of being in the classroom. Mm-hmm. And you shifted over to executive functioning, and I can't help but wonder, , if there was a moment where you're, like, watching these really bright kids, and you're like, "Why aren't they getting these things, these simple tasks done?"

Dori Durbin: For sure. 

Connie Bonnett: So 

Dori Durbin: how did the teaching come into what you're doing now and, and kind of channel what your focus was? 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I, uh, I didn't ma- sort of make the plan early on that this was sort of the trajectory of my career, but I, I taught for 14 years. I took a little time off, um, when my kids were young.

Connie Bonnett: And one of the things I think that was really integral in this sort of switch or, or change to having my own coaching practice is a conversation that I had with a friend, this is after I had been in the classroom, but who was a school psychologist, and she had recently kinda gone back to work also [00:04:00] after being home with her kids.

Connie Bonnett: And anyway, we were having coffee, and she said, "You know what I think you should do? I think you should be an executive function coach." And I looked her dead in the eye and I said, "What's that?" 'Cause I had never heard this term before. So thinking back now that I know what I know, I look back on, in m- on my experience in the classroom, and I see those kids, the ones you were talking about, right?

Connie Bonnett: Like, oh, that makes sense. That kid who was, like, the smartest kid was struggling to just get their work in on time or w- or sit still in class or whatever the th- like then I could sort of see it in retrospect. But to be honest with you, I like, thinking back on, I like to, I would love to tell you that I always had a heart for these kids, like the ones that were struggling in my class and the, but I don't think that's true.

Connie Bonnett: I think I was judging kids. I'm, in fact, I'm sure of it. Like, I was thinking, like I, I'm, I can picture in my brain some of these kids [00:05:00] you're talking about. Like, I can see their face. And sort of on the side, I was like, "Come on." You gotta do better." You know what I mean? Like, I'm sure it, I'm sure of it.

Connie Bonnett: When I was a teacher, r- relationship, like having strong relationships with my students was always really important to me, so that was never in question. But I would just, I would love to go back now, although I'm not sure I'm gonna go back to the classroom now, but I would love to go back to those times and sort of s- see it differently.

Connie Bonnett: Because the thing about this executive function business is that n- now that I s- I can't unsee it now. Now that I understand, and I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit here, now that I understand that, like, those kids, those kids I can picture in my head weren't being willful. They weren't t- trying to turn their work in late or have a hard time sitting still.

Connie Bonnett: Like, the, it's not a, it's, they weren't being lazy then I can't unsee it now. Like, I would, I would do things differently. So I, w- I love thinking about my time in the classroom. It, [00:06:00] it for, f- to start, it gives me a lot of great experience to work with families. Another, I didn't even mention, but another group of people that I help or that I work with is teachers, is I want more and more teachers to understand this executive function stuff, too.

Connie Bonnett: So I just want more people to know about it, Dorie. That's all. That it's a real thing. That it's a real thing. 

Dori Durbin: It sounds like it's more common than it's not. Is that true? Yeah. 

Connie Bonnett: You mean, um, challenges in executive function? 

Dori Durbin: Challenges, but also, like, in a classroom of, let's say, 30, would you say there are five executive function, 

Connie Bonnett: you know- Easily

Connie Bonnett: struggles? Easily, yeah. And the thing about executive function, too, is that, like, brains are different. Every brain is different. So, like, these skills that I've been listing off, planning, and time management, and organization, and, um, self-monitoring, and focus, and all, these skills are, like, for one kid in the class it might be super easy to stay focused even if it's boring, but for another kid, then the focus is the really big challenge.

Connie Bonnett: But then there's maybe another kid in the [00:07:00] classroom who is the, like, oh, getting started, that's a skill we haven't talked about yet. Task initiation, like, just getting started is the tricky thing. So guaranteed, teachers have many kids in their class who struggle with some of this stuff, and sometimes we as the adults look at it as lazy or willful or defiant.

Connie Bonnett: But that's not what the brain science tells us. It's like, the brain science people, I am not a brain science person, but the brain science people tell us it's just a, it's a brain thing. It's a, how their brain works. So yeah, it's, I, for sure. And a parent, your audience is mostly parents. There, for sure there are parents out there who are going yep check, check."

Connie Bonnett: Um, "That describes my kid." And like you said in your intro, one kid and the other kid are, could be different, like, in the same house, for sure. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah, and I think that's what makes it frustrating, 

Connie Bonnett: Mm-hmm ... 

Dori Durbin: i, I remember in my own family saying, "Well, how can you have two kids and have them s- respond so differently to the same situation?"

Dori Durbin: Yeah. And I, thinking about your just even your processing of, [00:08:00] how do you get started? How do you manage yourself? 

Skills Must Be Taught

Dori Durbin: Like, that's not stuff that typically parents teach. No. Like, it's not, like, in our scope of the parenting manual

Connie Bonnett: Totally which I'm so glad you bring it up because that's also a really important piece of it, is that the brain science people, it's funny that I call them that, but I do with my students, I'm like, "The brain science people," you might call them neuroscientists.

Connie Bonnett: Um, the brain science people tell us that they are skills that have to be taught. They must be explicitly taught- Or some kids can learn from observation, right? Like, if certain kids' brains can, like, look at this adult doing this thing, or a friend, "Oh, that's how they do it? Okay, I can try that." But the great majority of students and children, they have to be taught how to do this stuff.

Connie Bonnett: In fact, I was... This is a funny story that I remember from a talk that I did at a PTO, like, a local PTO here in Oregon, where I live, and I remember saying [00:09:00] this, that, like, we tend to think, just like you said we forget that, or maybe we don't even know that these must be taught. We tend to think that, like, kids just figure out how to use a calendar, or get somewhere on time, you know?

Connie Bonnett: But we have to teach this. And she, this woman raised her hand, this mom, she raised her hand, and she said, "That is so true." She said, "I think about this stuff all the time. Yes, we have to teach them how to do that." And she said, "As a parent, there's so many things that I think about, like, oh, I have to teach that?"

Connie Bonnett: And she said, "I had to teach my kids how to wash their feet. Like, th- that you have to wash your feet," you know? Little things that you don't think about. Like, there's so much of it in parenting, and this is just one more, right? One more thing for, like, we have to teach them how to, to do this stuff, how to manage, how to get their important things done.

Connie Bonnett: Including another one is, you know, wash your feet. 

Dori Durbin: Well, you think about brushing your teeth, too. Totally. Washing your face, getting dressed. 

Connie Bonnett: Totally. Totally. 

Dori Durbin: Those are all such basic... But we, [00:10:00] we expect to do that when they're little and when they're toddlers. 

Dori Durbin: And we don't think about, um, like you said, like, using a calendar or planning out your day so that you're on time.

Connie Bonnett: For sure. 

Dori Durbin: I mean, that's a big one for a lot 

Connie Bonnett: of- That comes up a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Comes up a lot. Getting out the door on time in the morning. You know, I, I work with, with students all year round, so even in the summer, but, but especially during the school year, it's like, the getting out the door to the bus or to the carpool or just getting to school on time.

Connie Bonnett: Like, that comes up a lot. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Yes. Yes. 

Same Struggles Any Age

Dori Durbin: So when it comes to ages of the people that you help- 

... 

Dori Durbin: are there more common issues earlier than later? Or is it kind of across the globe, like, you can have issues with any of these things

Connie Bonnett: great question. I think the, the, the general ch- challenges and struggles are the same across the ages.

Connie Bonnett: I just started working with a sixth grader, who's gonna be a sixth grader, so he's pretty young but the challenges for him are [00:11:00] staying focused on s- stuff that's, like, not that interesting to him, and, um, staying organized with dates and things like that, important... He has some important appointments that he goes to regularly, and things like that.

Connie Bonnett: So then you sort of fast-forward to I work with middle school, high school, college, and then adults too, and then there's adults that I work with who can say the same thing, right? Like, "I can't stay focused on the thing that is so boring at my work that I need to do, but I have to do it. I'm struggling with dates."

Connie Bonnett: You know, so I would say ch- my, my general c- uh, comment about that is that, yeah the, the challenges are often the same. The context is different, right? Obviously, like a middle schooler and a, 30-something working in an office is different. But, but the themes, the the general themes that I hear over and over again are very similar.

Connie Bonnett: It's just the context is, is different for a kid versus an adult, yeah. 

Dori Durbin: So when, when I'm a, a parent who's hearing reports back I'm, uh, focused on the school aspect of 

Connie Bonnett: it. Yeah, of course. That's what I'm, I'm... 'Cause that's [00:12:00] my- Yeah ... my background, yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. And I think it's easier for you to hear from somebody else that there's an issue, because at home you're like, "That's normal for this child," right?

Connie Bonnett: Yeah. 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah 

Is It Executive Function

Dori Durbin: So when you hear people talk about their kids at school, how would I know that it's an executive function issue- Mm-hmm ... versus, like you were talking about, a willful issue, or maybe maybe there's a vision issue. Like, how- Mm-hmm ... how do I discern that this is executive functioning and not something else?

Connie Bonnett: That's a great question. Uh, I, because I'm not a special- you know, a specialist, I'm not a dyslexia specialist or I'm not a, like you said, vision or hearing or whatever I think, uh, maybe the question comes down to thinking about these, these various skills, and just considering, like, could this be- A, a lagging skill.

Connie Bonnett: You know, like a, could the, could whatever's happening at school be so- uh, one of these lagging skills? So like, could it be that like, oh, interesting. Yeah, it does look [00:13:00] like they sort of sit there at their desk after everybody's gotten started, and they stare at their paper. And I mean, it could be that they didn't hear me but it also, could it be that they're having trouble getting started?

Connie Bonnett: Yeah. And often, that can be o- often the case, which task initiation is one of these skills. So could it be? So I guess, um, I don't have a great answer for like how you determine whether it's executive function versus these other f- other challenges, but but the what if question. Yeah. You know, like a- and the willful thing.

Connie Bonnett: Like, what, what if they're not being willful, and this is a Task initiation thing. 

Math Stare Story

Connie Bonnett: I had a I, I was recently at my 30th college reunion. So fun. I had never been to one before. It was really fun. But ran into an old friend who is a teacher also, and he was telling me about his high school son. And we were talking about my work, of course, and he said that he witnessed it with his own eyes one day.

Connie Bonnett: He, like, [00:14:00] sat down, he's a ma- high school math teacher, and he sat down with his high school son to, like, help him with his math, and they went through the problems and he kinda helped him f- understand what to do, et cetera, et cetera. And then he's like, "Okay." The dad was like, "Okay, well, let's try this problem."

Connie Bonnett: And he got to work. So the da- the dad's, like, working the problem next to him, da da da, and he looks over at his son and he's just staring at the page. And he said, "Hey, buddy, you know, what's going on? I thought we were..." And then because he was his dad, the, the child said, "Well, I'm trying to figure out, like, how much room to leave on the page for this long problem to do.

Connie Bonnett: And if it's a long problem, like, where on the page should I start?" And kept going into these other things that had nothing to do with the math problem itself, but is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, right? On the outside it could look like he's just staring into space, doesn't wanna do his work, right?

Connie Bonnett: He's like, "I'm not doing that problem." But the truth is is he had all these things going through his head [00:15:00] to try to figure out how to get started on the math problem. That's the kinda thing, right? Like, so, so the what if question, like, i- if there's something, you know, that I can leave with, with parents is to just get curious.

Connie Bonnett: Like, start to notice these types of things. Now granted, you're not always next to your kid when they're doing their math problem but the what if. Like, what if this, what if this is, oh, getting started is tricky? So, or, or maybe what if they need more clear instructions? Or there's so many things, right?

Connie Bonnett: Like, so that's sort of my I love that story. I was, I was so happy that he told me because that's a perfect example of this, like, getting started, or it's not willful. That kid wanted to, wanted to do the problem, but there were too many obstacles to get started. 

Dori Durbin: And it's probably even more obvious because his dad just showed him how to do it.

Connie Bonnett: Totally. It was so obvious- Yeah ... 'cause they were side by side, and they just had this conversation. And so imagine in a classroom, like you said, of 30 kids, you start and you think, "Okay, everybody, we're gonna start." And then [00:16:00] there's, several of them who just sit there. And you think like, "Oh."

Connie Bonnett: But no, it's definitely an executive function thing. 

Dori Durbin: So as a parent or as the teacher really, if you have a student who, uh, if they're not able to start, how do you help them actually start? What would be something that that we could do easily to- 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah.

Connie Bonnett: This is... I, I actually have a, a free resource for this. We'll get to that later I'm sure. But I call it the Task Initiation Toolkit because, uh, there's all kinds of different ways, to trick yourself to get started, but, you know, one of them, for example in this situation, maybe it's just do one problem or one piece of the problem, so like breaking it down into big...

Connie Bonnett: So I don't remember what this math, but it was high school math, so it was probably, like, a more complicated math problem. So maybe, maybe the dad could have said, like, "Hey, just do this first portion first, and then let's take a look, um, and make sure we're on, everything's lined up or we're on the same page about that."

Connie Bonnett: And so sort of breaking things down into, in my world, we call them chunks. Mm-hmm. Chunking it. [00:17:00] Um, baby steps, basically. So a great way to get started on something that sort of feels big to a kid is to make it smaller. Um, and you can chunk it, like, by task, by, like, pro- parts of the math problem, like I was saying.

Connie Bonnett: Like, let's just do this first, and then we'll check in, and then we'll do the next piece, and then we'll do the next piece. Or you can chunk it by time, like small increments of time. So I was with a student yesterday who's working on a plan for, he's g- on his way to college next year, and he is, he and some friends are going to a concert this summer.

Connie Bonnett: And they're out of state, and they're very excited, but it's feeling kinda overwhelming, like, the planning of this thing. So we spent just short amount of time, like, hey, let's spend 10 minutes thinking just about this one thing, and then that's an easier way to get started rather than like, "I have to figure out the whole par- plan for the whole s- weekend for the..."

Connie Bonnett: You know? So just making everything kind of smaller, shrinking the, the starting point is a great simple way f- to help get [00:18:00] started. 

Dori Durbin: I love that because so many students do have that sense of overwhelm. 

Connie Bonnett: Totally. 

Dori Durbin: And especially when it's something where you know it's gonna take energy, you know it's gonna take time.

Dori Durbin: You have to rev yourself up to get started. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then you still have to commit to it and finish it, I, I think about projects all the time, you know? Totally. Projects that have this massive quantity of work behind it- Mm-hmm ... in your mind at least. 

Dori Durbin: So you're saying even if it's like work on it for 10 minutes- 

Connie Bonnett: Totally

Dori Durbin: gotcha. 

Connie Bonnett: Got it. I d- I use that for myself too. I'm in the middle of planning this event, and it feels real big, and my brain does not love it. Um, and so, I, you know, on my little to-do list, I use a sticky note for my daily plan. You w- we talked before, I think before we got on, about planning your day. It says, "Spend 30 minutes on- blah, blah, blah, whatever it is.

Connie Bonnett: Like, I just, I can't do it all today, but I do have time to spend 30 minutes on that. So that's me chunking it, making it smaller. Yeah. 

Motivation Follows Action

Connie Bonnett: I did wanna say one other thing. You mentioned about, like, revving yourself [00:19:00] up to, to get started or, like, uh, here I go again about the brain science, people. But the brain science people tell us that we like, everybody I work with, t- we tend to think that, like, we have to get revved up, get motivated in order to start something.

Connie Bonnett: But the truth is, is it's the other way around actually, that we just have to start and then the motivation comes usually. Not always, but usually. So if we can fig- the getting started question is, is such a good one because if we can figure out how to just get started, then we'll feel more motivated to keep going.

Connie Bonnett: And so those, like, little teeny ways to try to get started are especially important so that the motivation will come. I think that's really interesting. 

Dori Durbin: It's funny, when I started drawing as, as a children's book illustrator- 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah ... 

Dori Durbin: I was so scared to get something out on paper and have people not like it.

Dori Durbin: I actually had to convince myself to take a piece of paper, put my pencil on it- 

Connie Bonnett: [00:20:00] Yeah ... 

Dori Durbin: and make a line. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. And silly as that 

Connie Bonnett: sounds- That's what I'm talking 

Dori Durbin: about ... yeah, that was it. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. Just drag it across the paper even if it's not straight, who cares? You know?

Dori Durbin: Yes. But it was like that, that fear- Do 

Connie Bonnett: something, 

Dori Durbin: mm-hmm ... stopped you from being able to m- move into the next phase. 

Connie Bonnett: For sure. Yeah. And I would argue that that happens to students too. Like, whatever the thing is, it feels really big. They may not even really understand what to do. Yeah. That happens a lot too, so that's another thing to, to sort of back up and be like, "Hold on.

Connie Bonnett: Let's make sure we know exactly what to do." Yeah. Then it makes it a lot easier to get started. But same thing, like just drawing the line on the paper could be just pulling up the assignment. And rereading it once before, "Oh, now I get it. Okay." Or even asking questions if you don't know what the assignment exactly is asking.

Connie Bonnett: Like, that could be you're drawing a line on the page. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. 

Wiggles And Impulse Control

Dori Durbin: What about for kids who are sitting in class, and they're looking around, and they're saying to themselves, I can't sit [00:21:00] here. I am, I physically am moving around. I can't control it. My teacher's yelling at me." "I know this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing, but I can't control those things."

Dori Durbin: What are some skills that they might be missing in those situations? 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah, I mean, that's tricky. The, I feel for those kids, to be honest. I, I do think that more and more teachers are aware of the fact that kids need to move their bodies in class. Some kids stand up. Maybe there's a standing desk or two in the classroom that they can move to at any time, or there's a, the

Connie Bonnett: Some of my k- I remember when my kids were, there's a, like, what they called a wobble cushion. I don't know, do you know what I'm talking about? Like, a little thing you could put on your seat so that they can kinda do a little of this, you know, or move your fidgets or things like that. So I mean, there are strategies for kids.

Connie Bonnett: But in answer to your question about, like, what are the skills it's impulse control. You know? Like, h- how can I, I have to do this thing, but I ... You know? Like, and sometimes, sometimes th- they have to s- tell their brain, like, "Nope, not now. I can't do the thing right now." Um, so it's related to impulse [00:22:00] control for sure.

Connie Bonnett: Focus comes up, too, right? Like, if it's boring and I'm having a trouble focusing, then, then I definitely feel the more need to move my body. I'd like to think that teachers are becoming more and more aware of stuff like this, but again, not all teachers are okay with, with m- kids walking around in their classroom or going to the back of the room.

Connie Bonnett: Um, th- that we could get into a whole conversation about self-advocacy, you know, kids asking for what they need. But that's not always easy when everybody else seems to be able to do it in the room, and I'm the only one who's wiggling over here, and my teacher said no, so ha, what do I do? So some- I, I've had kids wear like a, um

Connie Bonnett: f- some teachers have strong feelings about no fidget type things, 'cause they're too much like a toy, but, um, a really simple one is, like, you know those, um, silicone wedding rings? I don't know if people wear them at, around your house. In Bend, I live in Bend, Oregon. It's very, like, outdoorsy, and people are really active, and they like mountain climb and stuff.

Connie Bonnett: Um, but anyway, some pe- so some people wear these just rubber wedding [00:23:00] rings. So you can get one of those that all you have to, you know, you just wiggle it on your finger like this so it's not very obvious. It's not like a toy. I don't know. That's just one simple example. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. My daughter used to make the bracelets- Yeah

Dori Durbin: with the little rubber bands. 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah. Those 

Dori Durbin: little- Yeah ... tiny circles Yeah, 

Connie Bonnett: yeah, yeah. 

Dori Durbin: That would probably work, too, 

Connie Bonnett: right? That could work, too, on your, y- or you could even make a ring out of that or even with your, pull it off your wrist, or ... i, I have students all the time who tell me they're like a clicker.

Connie Bonnett: They, like, click their pen. Uh-huh. Click their pen- you know, like, whatever. That gets annoying for other people nearby but to just to have something, some way to move their body that, that works for them, that settles them a little bit can be helpful. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. 

Teaching Self Awareness

Dori Durbin: Well back to your point of the, the kids wiggling around, how do we teach kids how to be self-aware?

Dori Durbin: 'Cause that's its own skill, too, 

Connie Bonnett: right? That's for sure. Yeah. That's a great point. Sometimes that takes a little outside, not intervention, but, like, kids aren't aware sometimes that they are ... so I think, you know, in terms of parents helping a student understand the way they are- [00:24:00] brain works. I think talking about that stuff early on is okay, is in fact is, is good.

Connie Bonnett: And not in a judgy sort of way like, "Why can't you sit still?" But just like, "Hey, I noticed you look like you need to move your body. You know, does that happen at school?" It, you know, just kind of getting into conversations like that. Because gu- because guaranteed that those kids can sit still and do a thing in certain circumstances.

Connie Bonnett: Mm-hmm. Um, probably when they're doing something that they enjoy. But that's not to say ... But so I think just having ... And you asked how to teach kids how to do that, uh, be self-aware. I think that just talking about it, I think with, in a non-judgmental way. And I love the, the phrase I notice. "I notice blah, blah, blah, blah, blah happens."

Connie Bonnett: Or, "I notice, you know, when you get home from school every day, this is how you're feeling," or whatever it is. Like, just I notice can be really- I don't know, disarming. Like, it doesn't feel judgy. [00:25:00] I just, I've been noticing. 

Dori Durbin: It's way better than, "Why do you do this all the time?" 

Connie Bonnett: Uh, exactly. Exactly. I mean, I've been guilty of that as a parent myself, but, like- Sure

Connie Bonnett: but the, but the, the, the I notice phrase can be a little back up a little bit, not too judgy. I don't always, I don't always succeed in that, but that's my recommendation. 

Dori Durbin: Good. You know, when I think about kids' brains, I think about how complex they are, and- Yes ... like, their personalities, everything, they're still growing.

Dori Durbin: It's just a lot going on- Mm-hmm ... in a little body. And so one of the things I love to do, my career anyway, is be able to take content and kid-size it. Yeah. 

Brain Language Not Shame

Dori Durbin: So my question to you is, even though executive functioning is something that kids use all the time, a lot of kids don't understand it. 

Connie Bonnett: For sure. 

Dori Durbin: So what's the simplest way that you've found to help kids really understand, how their brains work?

Connie Bonnett: Yeah. I mean, I, again, I think talking about this stuff is great. We sometimes, um, the best way, I like, my, the definition that I [00:26:00] gave you at the beginning, the, that they are the brain skills that help us get things done, is what, is the, what I use with kids, too. So that's the definition that I use with kids.

Connie Bonnett: A- and then it's helpful to give suggestions for what are we talking about exactly. 'Cause the, you know, uh, every kid knows who's in school, knows that you have to get things done, right, at school. And even at home. This is not just school stuff, it's life stuff, too. So, like, chores, you have to clean your room or do your laundry.

Connie Bonnett: Ugh, laundry's the worst. There's so many steps. Um, but you have to, right, like, get something done. So they, so they can relate to that. And so I think just teaching k- and the self-awareness piece is, is big, too. Like, I will say one other phrase that I like to ask parents to consider is, or a shift, I guess, is rather than, "I'm bad at time management," like, if you start talking to your kids about these skills, like focus and getting started and time management and organization and planning th- they're, they'll understand what you mean [00:27:00] by that pr- if they're, you know, middle school-ish and up, even el- upper elementary.

Connie Bonnett: But rather than, "I'm, I know, Mom, I'm bad at organization," you know, like, kids say this stuff, right? Like, "I'm no good at this." I like to shift that to, I like, I say using the brain language, meaning, "My brain struggles with"- time management rather than I'm bad at. There's, like, something that, s- something about that language shift, so parents can do the same, right?

Connie Bonnett: Like, "Hey, yeah you have a brain that needs movement," or, "You struggle with, you know, controlling your body sometimes in blah, blah, blah," or, "You have a brain that has a hard time keeping things organized," rather than like, "You, Dory, are real bad at that thing." There's a shift that, that I think is important.

Connie Bonnett: So even that little shift is a way to teach kids that it's a brain thing And not a character flaw, right? 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it's a lot less personalized 

Connie Bonnett: and- Yeah, it feel... And I, my [00:28:00] real bright kids will be like, "Wait a minute, but I am my brain. We're the same." And I'm like, "It's, yes, sort of, I guess. But isn't it can we say that anyway?

Connie Bonnett: Like, 'My brain struggles with...' Or, 'I have a brain that needs movement when I'm in class.'" Or, uh, it does, it, like, takes sort of the, the shame away a little bit. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah, I like that. I th- I'm sure those same kids they love school or they hate school 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah

Dori Durbin: um, it's still a struggle for any kid, but when they're in the spot where it's just, um, not natural for them. It makes everything harder. Um- 

Connie Bonnett: So it shouldn't be that hard. I know. That's what I say to kids, like, "It's not supposed to be this hard." So that's where the strategies come in. That's where, like, the support comes in.

Connie Bonnett: That's where the tools that I teach, that's where that stuff comes in, because it's not supposed to be this hard for kids. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. 

Analog Clocks Make Time Visible

Dori Durbin: Thinking about time management, is there one thing that you wished kids understood about time management or that they learned about time management early so it was just simpler for them later?

Connie Bonnett: I mean, this is a very simple example, [00:29:00] but I want all kids to learn how to tell time- 

... 

Connie Bonnett: On an analog clock. And I know, I know most kids in school learn or start to learn this. I feel like my kids were in second grade maybe when they, I can't remember. But, um, but then a lot of kids once they get to me, they say, like, "Ooh."

Connie Bonnett: I say, "How comfortable do you feel?" In fact, I keep one on my desk. "How comfortable do you feel telling time on an analog clock?" I actually ask adult clients that, too, just because. And so many of them say, like, "Mm, I mean, I can do it, but, like, it takes me a while." You know, that sort of thing. Or some will just say, like, "Mm, no, I can't do that anymore."

Connie Bonnett: I think it's really important actually to, to really, well, to first of all have analog clocks in your world, in your home but also to, to make sure that the kids do actually learn it. There's a difference between how we perceive time on a digital clock, which only shows one moment [00:30:00] in time- 

Dori Durbin: Mm-hmm

Connie Bonnett: and how we perceive time on an analog clock, which shows you, like, way more information than that, right? Like, it shows you, like, where we are in the hour. It shows you how many minutes until we're done here. It shows you how long have we been sitting here. So if, if we take it back to, like, my most simple tip is, I mean, I love an analog clock so I'd love for you to have them in your home.

Connie Bonnett: Um, but also to help kids learn for reals. How to tell time on an analog clock 

Dori Durbin: Is it also because they can see, like, feel a little 

Connie Bonnett: bit more of time- The passing of time ... 

Dori Durbin: think. 

Connie Bonnett: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, the, the, and kids will say, like,, "Wait a minute, but I can see the passing of time on a digital, 'cause it goes up a number, up a number, up a number, up," and I'm like yeah, but that's not the same as visually watching, like, the time passing with the big hand moving, um, and the little hand moving."

Connie Bonnett: So yeah, it's a very visual, it's super... In fact, one of the things that, that I say to anyone who is, like, what do, you know, help me, what do I do, [00:31:00] um, w- is to, I say, make the invisible visible where- whenever possible. There's so much invisible stuff in the life of a child. Time is one of them, but chores, expectations, a homework assignments, s- s- goals, like, every- invisible unless we make it visible.

Connie Bonnett: And so that's why I think analog clocks are so important, because it makes time visible. Having some sort of a daily plan, like my sticky note that I keep on my desk, it w- it c- it can't just live in my head, so I offload it and put it somewhere in my face so I remember what I'm gonna do today. So making the invisible visible is one of my favorite phrases.

Dori Durbin: Love that. I love the idea of,, seeing it. Mm-hmm. So many people are visual,

Dori Durbin: yeah. We're just kind of trained to be so much more visual, now. Yeah. So seeing that passing, that's really helpful spatially and mentally to, to be able- Yeah ... to do that. '

Visual Checklists At Home

Connie Bonnett: Cause a lot of the kids that I work with, the ones who struggle with this stuff especially, but every kid but the ones who [00:32:00] struggle with this stuff, like, sometimes it works for them to keep it in their head. Mm-hmm. The things they need to do or whatever, their homework assignments or their chores or their whatever, but not always.

Connie Bonnett: And so to get in the habit of offloading it and making it visible so that it's more likely to help or happen more often than not, i, I'm thinking of students who, like high school students who have all these homework assignments at night or whatever, and they, like, think they're gonna remember all the things that, from their classes, and sometimes they do, but then they don't, and then they get in trouble and they get behind in class, and then they've got these assignments that are missing and, um, so, uh, figuring out a way, that's another thing parents can do when kids are young, is, whether they can read or not, is, like, kinda putting some things in, in writing or even photographs or making things v- Like, we were talking about getting out the door in the morning for a kid, you know, trying to get to the bus.

Connie Bonnett: Like, I love taking a photograph of your child with the [00:33:00] backpack and the water bottle and the jacket and the shoes on and the, like, everything that it takes to get ready, and then posting it And saying like, "Hey, do you match the, do you have all the things in the photo?" That's a very visual way to help your kid get ready in the morning to get out the door.

Connie Bonnett: So even if they're not reading yet, you can do that. 

Dori Durbin: That's brilliant. Yeah. 

Connie Bonnett: And so, and then you don't, then you also don't have to like, "Are you ready yet? You don't have your water bottle and you," like you can just say, "Hey, do you match the photo? 'Cause that's how we know you're ready."

Connie Bonnett: And then move, hope, hopefully that helps. Yeah.

Dori Durbin: Oh, that's awesome. 

Tools And How To Work Together

Dori Durbin: Kari, you have shared so many amazing ideas, and I know that people are gonna wanna know about, more about your tools, about how they can work with you and what all that looks like.

Dori Durbin: So can you share some of that with us? 

Connie Bonnett: Sure, sure. So to start, let me share the, um, that free resource so you can find that. So it's called the Task Initiation Toolkit. It's designed for school-age kids, basically. And you can find that just at my website, which is [00:34:00] karibonnett.com/toolkit. And then that'll come to your inbox, and there's 16 different ways, I think, to help your kid get started on something.

Connie Bonnett: And then I work one-on-one with students in middle school all the way up to college and then beyond, um, f- folks who are struggling and want some support to create some systems and to learn some things like we did today about how to make the invisible visible and other things like that. And all that information's at my website, too which is just karibonnett.com.

Connie Bonnett: And I do teacher trainings and, um, work with parents as well. So I, all that stu- I have a blog. Anyway, all the things you can find, uh, on my website, thanks, Dori. 

Dori Durbin: I will definitely put that in the show notes. Yeah. And Kari, it's awesome that you have all these resources.

Dori Durbin: I think it's amazing. 

Connie Bonnett: Thank you. 

Dori Durbin: Yes. 

One Simple Step Today

Dori Durbin: Well, every parent is going to, walk away today seeing that, their child is a little bit different than they maybe saw them earlier before this podcast. So if they're thinking through this and they're like, [00:35:00] "Oh, I think I need to work on executive functioning with my child," instead of trying to do it all at one time mm-hmm

Dori Durbin: what is one thing that they could do today, right after the podcast, to help their kids? 

Connie Bonnett: I think I'm thinking of, um- Na- so we were talking about, like, noticing w- I notice is the phrase that I like a lot, but one other thing I'm thinking of is s- brains that struggle with this stuff, especially younger ones, sometimes don't have, like, the internal dialogue that's going on.

Connie Bonnett: Like, we as adults, we're like, "I need to be at my appointment at 9:15. It usually takes me 10 minutes to drive there. That means I need to leave the house by blah, blah, blah, blah." You know, like, we have this internal dialogue going on in our head to how we get our things done, and so one thing I think could be really helpful is to say that stuff out loud in the presence of your kid w- because that helps them kinda get their internal dialogue going also.

Connie Bonnett: So that's just anytime you're like, "I'm [00:36:00] feeling stressed. I'm gonna step outside and take four deep breath," or whatever it is. Like, narrating that stuff out loud is a super, super simple way to support their executive function. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. 'Cause you're teaching them s- a lot of life skills- 

Connie Bonnett: Totally

Dori Durbin: And how to get things done, the process of thinking through start to finish of something. Mm-hmm. 

Connie Bonnett: Yeah. That's an easy one, too, to narrate it, 'cause you don't have, you don't need anything special. You just have your thoughts, and you just say them out loud to your kids. 

Dori Durbin: Love it. Awesome. Yes.

Dori Durbin: Perfect, Keri. 

Connie Bonnett: Good. Good. 

Final Wrap And Next Steps

Dori Durbin: Keri, thank you so much for all your insight and wisdom today. I feel like one of the biggest things in my mind is okay, we don't have to solve it all right now. 

Connie Bonnett: No. Baby steps. Remember? Chunk it. Even that, even helping your kid, we do it by baby steps. Progress is measured in baby steps.

Dori Durbin: And that's, that's all we can do at this point, 'cause, uh, as far as parenting goes, there's no perfect path to parenting. 

Connie Bonnett: No. Gosh, no. 

Dori Durbin: So well, listeners, hopefully this is a helpful message for you because these skills can [00:37:00] be taught. They're things that you can find out how to do, and do that by contacting Keri.

Dori Durbin: And also, another thing, listeners, I would love to invite you to That's Good Parenting Club. Remember, this is the club that's free, where you can help shape children's books from experts just like Keri and get the behind-the-scenes look at how those resources develop and how they can come to life at home.

Dori Durbin: So like I said at the beginning, none of us is perfect- ... but if we take one chunk at a time- 

Connie Bonnett: That's right ... 

Dori Durbin: we can, we can make such a big difference in \ the stress that we are experiencing, and you can end your day saying, "Well, now that, that moment, that was good parenting."