Dori Durbin: Welcome to That's Good Parenting, the podcast that searches for simple steps to reduce your parenting stress. I'm Dori Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, and podcaster of, of course, this show. And I wanna say something about parenting in general. Parenting doesn't come with a manual, and so most of us really struggle and try to figure it out as we go.

Dori Durbin: Usually, it's by ourselves. And when it comes to this, it makes things like screen time, conflicts, dishes, homework seem even bigger. So what if, that wasn't the issue? , What if it was about connection, communication, and understanding what's happening underneath our thoughts for our families?

Dori Durbin: Today's guest helps families navigate conflict, transitions, grief, parenting challenges, divorce, and emotional distance, and all the messy moments that come with just being a person. Angela Caldwell is a licensed marriage and family therapist, family coach, founder and the director of the Caldwell Family [00:01:00] Institute.

Dori Durbin: She is someone who has spent years helping families heal and reconnect. Angela, welcome to the show. 

Angela Caldwell: Thank you, Dori. I'm so happy for the opportunity. 

Dori Durbin: I'm excited to talk to you, and I have so many questions that I can't wait to ask you. But the first one is, what about your work got you into this area?

Dori Durbin: What is the passion behind it, and what keeps you doing what you do? 

Angela Caldwell: Thank you for asking me that. I have to tell you, when people ask me that, what I hear hidden in the question is, "Are you insane? How could you do this for a living?" I, um, I, so have a reputation for working with high-conflict families, and my joke about that is have you ever met a family that's not high-conflict?

Angela Caldwell: Right? So families- Mm ... are full of human beings, so that's our first problem. Um, if we could create a family that was not full of human beings, we'd be fine. I wouldn't have a job. But we're human beings, and we have flaws, and we have imperfections, and we have preferences and opinions, and, and one thing we really don't like is sharing [00:02:00] any space with any other humans.

Angela Caldwell: So when you put a bunch of them together under one roof, there's gonna be problems. And I actually, I had it. My, I say this a lot. I had this grad school professor one time. I quote him all the time. He said this thing that is so true, and everyone will relate to it. He said, "There is no house on this planet that is big enough for two people."

Angela Caldwell: Right?

Angela Caldwell: We don't wanna deal with each other. We love each other. I mean, if we could have it our way, we'd, we'd visit every now and then, but we don't wanna share a sink or a fridge. I don't wanna hear your opinions. Uh, your quirks are annoying me. Why do you do that with your mouth?

Angela Caldwell: Can't you just sleep softly? Can't... Right? Like- Yeah ... so then we, we, this is what it's like to be in a family, and those kind of little annoyances can grow into bigger things. And, and of course, there are the families that go through tragedies and traumas and, and that can really tear relationships apart.

Angela Caldwell: Anyway, this is a long answer to your question. I grew up in a, a very high conflict, high love a w- struggled telling each other that we loved each other but knew we did, [00:03:00] but had a lot of conflict. And I wish that someone had sat us down. I wish that someone... I wish we could've sat in a room and someone could've said, "Hey, say it this way," or, "He doesn't mean that," or, "Oh, I see the problem," right?

Angela Caldwell: And I didn't know that there was such a thing as family therapy, so imagine my surprise that when I grow up and I find out, like, "No, you can actually, like, do this for a living. You can do, you can be in the living rooms of all these families, and, like, say to the family, 'No, say it this way,' and, 'That's not what he meant,' and, and, 'Try this.'"

Angela Caldwell: And it is the best job. It's the best job. It's the best job in the world. That's 

Dori Durbin: amazing, and that's probably what keeps you there doing it, is seeing the progression from, for families. 

Angela Caldwell: Yes. Yeah. It's family therapy is different than individual or couple therapy, not just in the number of people in the room, but in the way that you have to do therapy.

Angela Caldwell: Mm-hmm. You have to be pretty nimble as a therapist, pretty quick. You have to be monitoring about 800 different dynamics in the room, and triaging which ones need your attention and which ones are just not gonna get your attention that day. And because it's more [00:04:00] difficult than individual therapy and it's a little bit more active and high energy it is, it's, it can be exhausting.

Angela Caldwell: So I can, I, I can't do eight hours of clients in a day, for example. I can do maybe, like, three or four. But it's also families are hard, and families, one of the laws of nature that we accept as a family therapist is that families are resistant to change. They say they want to change. They actually want everyone else to change.

Angela Caldwell: Um, that's human. That's a normal human thing, but because I have six people in the room who aren't really all that interested in changing themselves, families become very resistant. And so you have to have a pretty good pain tolerance. Y- y- the satisfaction of the job and the, the reward that I get as a therapist, it doesn't come for a while.

Angela Caldwell: So it's a, it's a long game. But when it comes, I, I have colleagues who only do individual therapy, and I always kind of tell them, I say, "You get satisfaction more frequently, but mine's bigger than yours." I get a huge, big... People feel better. People get along. [00:05:00] People stitch up old wounds. People, people come to compromises, which means nobody's that happy, but okay, we can sit together at dinner and not throw food at each other, right?

Angela Caldwell: So, so it's, uh, it is tremendously satisfying work. 

Dori Durbin: It's really interesting when you say this, 'cause I, I always think of conflict as being something that's bad. Yeah. But when you're talking, I'm thinking there's so many conflicts that we have that we either just kind of pass off as like, "Well, that really bothers me, but I'm just gonna let this go."

Dori Durbin: So when you work with people, is it some of those, those issues that other people are able to just release? Or what, what is it when people really reach out to you and they really need your help? 

Angela Caldwell: Yeah, that's a good question. There's, it's, it's a myriad of things. There's, there's garden variety family problems, um, that you'll...

Angela Caldwell: and what I mean by that is that most families go through conflict, notable conflict. Like, they would look back on their life and say, "Oh, that was a tough time for us." Yeah. Most families go through notable conflict during transitions. So when the [00:06:00] family has to evolve from one stage to another stage.

Angela Caldwell: So, so it's one thing to be young, new parents raising, you know, babies and toddlers, and then have to transition to, okay, now we're parents raising elementary school kids, right? And then transition to adolescence, right? Or now someone, one of my kids is getting married and bringing in a stranger.

Angela Caldwell: This is not an OG. Like, what, these are our rules. What, what is this language you're speaking, right? That's a kind of a tr- a new baby is a transition. A death in the family, so, a parent dying, you know, is a transition and event. So families uh, most families have difficulty with those transitions, and that's what I would consider, without being dismissive, garden variety family conflict.

Angela Caldwell: Mm-hmm. Right? That's, that, that would be painful and difficult for families, but normal. Nor- normal family problems. I d- there's, there's, um, other kinds of problems I'm sure your listeners are familiar with, and these, these, uh, could fall under the umbrella category of, of high conflict, and these are really tough things for a family.

Angela Caldwell: Divorce, uh, mental illness, um, deportation tragedy and [00:07:00] trauma custody battle. You know, child abuse, domestic violence. Like, big kind of what we imagine are, like, kind of TV show problems, right? Those families, um, I also, I love to help those families too. Those families, especially the ones dealing with the sort of society no-nos, like domestic violence and child abuse they, I hope, they get to feel a non-judgmental safety in my room.

Angela Caldwell: And so with those fa- I really like working with those families because, yes, some humans in this family hurt other humans in this family, but we're human, and if we look carefully and we find r- the proper amount of remorse and the proper amount of shame and the proper amount of forgiveness, there's... I can say with my own two eyes, I have seen healing in these families.

Dori Durbin: That's huge. Okay, so my family hasn't gone through a lot of these things that you've described, and I know just changes you know, sending the kids off to college or like you were talking about elementary. Elementary, I sat in the parking lot and bawled my eyes out those transitions where, you know, the [00:08:00] routine changes and the people around you change, but where it's traumatic and where your sense of hope or your sense of trust are banished, I think that's kind of where your, your people are, right? 

Angela Caldwell: Yeah. I, I like those.

Angela Caldwell: I like the families where... Here's a, a real s- strange thing that I'll say, because this is a weird thing to say. Um, I have deep respect for pain. Mm-hmm. And so when I am presented with a family that is in a lot of pain I'm very humbled by it. I always have this moment of sitting with them thinking, "My God, you're heroes."

Angela Caldwell: Like, what would it be like for me to go through what you're going through and still be able to sit together and, and want each other, and reach for each other, and long for each other? And it's a, it's a humbling moment. And so, so yeah. So I especially like those families because of- how much admiration I have and what it teaches me, frankly, about pain and suffering.[00:09:00]

Dori Durbin: Yeah. 

Angela Caldwell: Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: How do you take a family that's gone through something like that and help turn them around? What, do you give them tools? Do you just, is it... What is the process?

Angela Caldwell: How many days do we have to talk about 

Dori Durbin: this? As many as we need, Angela. 

Angela Caldwell: So that's, it's a great question. How do you do that, right? You've got this like torn and broken and bruised family sitting in front of you, how do you help them? Um, tools are fine. I say this thing to my clients all the time, I say, "I can give you tools.

Angela Caldwell: You also can, like, ChatGPT tools. That, I don't know if you wanna pay me all this money for tools." You, you're gonna pick up tools along the way as a byproduct of being in my room and doing what we're doing. You, there's, there are in family therapy, there are approaches that you study in grad school, and you get training and all this stuff.

Angela Caldwell: But, but and there are different approaches, but they're all kind of after the same thing. Um, the w- I, I hope this will make sense. One thing that I use is restructuring. So a lot of times helping families through transitions actually requires a restructuring. Okay, now this person's not gonna have that role anymore.

Angela Caldwell: Oh, [00:10:00] and you're not gonna have as much power as you used to have. You actually need more pow- you know, um, we're gonna move you over he- you're gonna start confiding in her. You're gonna stop confiding in him, right? And so there's some restructuring going on. That would apply to, like I said, the kind of n- normal transitional conflicts that families have, but it also applies to tragedy.

Angela Caldwell: Because of expectations that are hidden. When we go through something really, really terrible we have... It's funny, we have these kind of automatic protocols in our minds. Um, like, "And now this needs to happen, and then you'll say this, and now I'll feel this, and then you'll do that." And then when it doesn't happen, our hearts are broken, right?

Angela Caldwell: And so that, that kind of, I'm using this word restructuring, the restructuring can happen with those families, too, but it's, it's kind of a restructuring of g- adjusting your expectations, but also asking family members to meet each other's expectations. Because she thought that you would be feeling this, and that's why she said this.

Angela Caldwell: And and the, the tragedy and the trauma is awful and terrible, but we don't actually... That's not the problem. Mm. The problem is the way the [00:11:00] family is communicating about the trauma, expecting what they're expecting about the trauma, wanting a family member to do this or say this or be this or feel this about the trauma.

Angela Caldwell: Um, feeling like they can't talk about the tragedy or the trauma. It so kind of restructuring some of the rules and protocols around something terrible, um, is... I know, I don't know if this is answering your question, but that's one of the hows. That's one of how you would help a family. 

Dori Durbin: No, it definitely, it makes sense, because you're, you're giving them a path.

Dori Durbin: You're pointing out what's different, showing them why it's gonna be different, and then giving them the resources to get what they still want. So I, and as you were talking about the expectations, I mean, we all kind of do that with different situations anyway. I used to get really mad at my son because he would have this long day, and I would expect him to reply with detailed information about what happened through the day. And he, I'd say, "How was your day? What did, how did things go?" And he'd say, "It was fine." Yes. And, and, and now I accept it.

Dori Durbin: I [00:12:00] expect and accept. But, you know, in the moments where I was expecting, you know, the detailed list, I would get so frustrated and take it personally.

Angela Caldwell: Yes, yeah. So, yeah. It's like being a family member kind of walking around with this question in your mind that you don't wanna admit to, but it's, "Why aren't you doing it my way?" 

Angela Caldwell: Right? Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: And that's something that, I mean, th- again, any family experiences, but this is heightened that much more, um, because of the trauma, because of what's going on.

Angela Caldwell: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. So when you have well-meaning families who come to you and they say, "Okay, we want things to work out better. There's just, it's so stressful at home. We need to move on or get to a different spot," but nobody will talk to each other. 

Angela Caldwell: Mm-hmm. 

Dori Durbin: What, yeah, and I, I'm saying this particular one because I think this is something that I feel like a lot of our listeners when their kids start to hit the tweens and teens, they get that, that find that situation [00:13:00] also.

Dori Durbin: So , how do you bring families out of that where they're actually communicating? 

Angela Caldwell: So I teach my students and my associates that h- they're, humans have good reasons for the things that they do. So if they are doing something that seems mean or illogical or irrational or at, at no point can a therapist say, "That doesn't make any sense."

Angela Caldwell: Everything makes sense. Everything a human is doing is making sense. So if a, uh, if, if a family member is not talking to another family member, there's a good reason. Now, it may not be a valid reason, but there's, there's a reason. There's a reason in there that is happening. When you're talking about the more kind of adolescent one-word answers the minimal, uh, discussion that's, that I'll normalize a little bit.

Angela Caldwell: I want e- I want everybody to remember that it's in adolescence that we realize, we might not put words to it, but it's when we're teenagers that we realize our mortality. We realize that our parents are gonna die before our friends, and that moment, our friends' opinions become more important than our parents, right?

Angela Caldwell: The way, our, what [00:14:00] our friends think of us becomes crucially important in that time. And so when parents are, are wanting to connect and, and talk through interesting, even if it's something superficial like, "How was your day?" Or something really big like, "What did you think of the election?" You know, like, like if it, if it, when parents wanna connect with their teenagers, you're not gonna have a ton, and the good reason why is because you have fallen on the importance hierarchy, right?

Angela Caldwell: And so you are not, you're no longer a priority. Now, this is when we step in and we teach good manners, right? And we say, uh, "Hey, fake it. Give me a paragraph or something. And not because you're interested and not because you want to, but because that's good manners, and I'm your mother, and respect me," right?

Angela Caldwell: So that's, we, we jump in there a little bit. Aside from that, though, if you're talking about the families where there's, eh, bad blood, you know, like, there's families kind of crossing their arms and they don't wanna talk through stuff and they don't have much to say again, the first order of business is to find the reason.

Angela Caldwell: There's a good reason why your husband doesn't want to talk to his son. There's a good reason why your daughter doesn't want to [00:15:00] talk to her sister. There's a there's a g- there's something there, and almost always, there is pain. Almost always there's pain and hurt. And my job as a therapist, you know, if someone says, "Well, I just, you know, they I've told them four times to do this thing and they won't do it," actually that's probably not the pain.

Angela Caldwell: Actually, there's probably something that it's bringing up that is in that vein where, how come when I speak, it's not important to you? How come you put so much attention on all these other things and not me? Why, why do you keep making me feel like I don't matter to you? And so what happens is if I can get the family talking about that, which is actually pretty easy, oh my gosh, Dorit, I hardly say anything the rest of the session.

Angela Caldwell: They, they- Mm-hmm ... it opens the floodgates on talking. 

Dori Durbin: Gosh. Because there's so much more underneath that. 

Angela Caldwell: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and family members, I think myself included, we d- we don't even realize how much we want the floor once, once, you know, once somebody helps us kind of say, "I think it's that thing over there."

Angela Caldwell: Mm-hmm. "Oh my gosh, yeah, and this, and then remember last Christmas? And then, [00:16:00] and you didn't and then there was that thing with the barbecue, remem-", and, right? And they, it just kind of opens, and my job is to sort of just facilitate that and let a person have the floor, make sure it's being understood by the rest of the family.

Angela Caldwell: "So let's respond to everything they said in a minute, but this is why she doesn't wanna talk to her sister. This is why, this is what's going on here." 

Dori Durbin: Are there families that hesitate to come to you because of some of that? Like, because- 

Angela Caldwell: No. I would think, you know, there's, there's gotta be families out there that one person is saying, "Hey, let's go see a therapist."

Angela Caldwell: Mm-hmm. And everybody else is going, "I don't wanna talk about this in front of a therapist," you know? Or, or, "No way." You know, I can say that I, I have families because the, some person in the family has been able to drag unwilling members. And I have had several families that say "I don't wanna talk about this.

Angela Caldwell: I know exactly what's gonna happen. Every time we talk about this, this happens, and she says that, and then she does this, and I d- I..." You know, you're new here, Angela. I'm not. I've had this conversation five million times, you know? Um, I've had those. That's when I, that's when [00:17:00] I, it needs to become a pep talk from me.

Angela Caldwell: Like, "Come on. Give me a chance. Let me try." You know? Like- Yeah ... "Try to have the conversation in front of me so that I can see what's happening, 'cause I might be able to see something you don't see." Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I could see that as not really the hesitation piece, but, like, the lagger who doesn't wanna come into the conversation because exactly that.

Dori Durbin: That, that fear of, "Okay, now I'm really gonna have to work through this, and somebody's gonna see something that I haven't been able to hide for a while." You know, right? Yeah. Maybe their process has worked for a while, and you're gonna open it up, and they're gonna have to talk about something that- Yeah

Dori Durbin: is even deeper than what they even realize,

Angela Caldwell: yes. I try to reassure those families, and, and you, and everyone who will listen to me. I try to reassure people that mar- uh, marriage and family therapy works from something called a systemic point of view. Mm-hmm. So what that means is that, um, we don't understand...

Angela Caldwell: We, we understand something called circular causality. So there's no you did this and so now you caused me to feel this way. It's more you did that probably because he did that, probably because you did that, probably 'cause he did that, probably 'cause you did, right? That, that family therapists are not really interested in [00:18:00] blame.

Angela Caldwell: It's so boring. It's so boring to blame someone. And also it doesn't really, I, n- we don't see how that helps the car engine get moving again. So people who are afraid that they're gonna get busted in the therapy session because they're, you know, they're gonna talk about this thing that they did, and they probably shouldn't have done, it isn't, it turns out to not be like that.

Angela Caldwell: Because the reason they did that thing, the, whatever the felony is that they committed, you know, whatever that thing was that they did, they probably did it because the system demanded that they do it because of what everybody else is doing and needing and saying around the system, and that's what we focus on.

Angela Caldwell: We say, "Ah, you were set up to fail. Because look, if you had done this, this would've happened, and this is it. And then she would've done that, and he would've made you stay at home, and then you would've missed the thing, and the..." Right? And so, and like, so we show them that, like, actually y- we're all sort of cogs in the wheel, right?

Angela Caldwell: We're, we're, we're all sort of like- doing a, a, we call it the family dance. We're in a, we're in a pattern. We're in a family interaction that actually is making him be really controlling, and it's making you really rebel and act out. And it's ma- because if you don't, then the system falls apart. So rather than say, "You're [00:19:00] mean and you're awful," can we reboot the system and make it so that you don't have to act these way, the- these, you know, these ways toward each other?

Dori Durbin: I don't know how you keep track of all this. How do you do that? 

Angela Caldwell: Chalkboards, whiteboards, notes. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of diagramming going on. It 

Dori Durbin: looks like a football play at the end of the whole- 

Angela Caldwell: Yes. Yes, yeah. I got teased the other day by one of my family th- because we had had, uh, this diagram with all these arrows, and he looked at it, he goes, "So do we send the wide receiver long or short?"

Dori Durbin: Oh, my goodness. Well, I was gonna ask you, how much external pressure comes into your therapy? So for instance, I mentioned this before we started about social media. I feel like so many of my conversations with experts is about how people see themselves or don't see themselves through social media.

Dori Durbin: And I'm not sure that a family structure is any different. So what does, what does that look like in your practice? Oh 

Angela Caldwell: my gosh, you're exactly right. How much do external influences c- they are in the [00:20:00] room with us. I should buy a new couch for the external influences. There, there is, they are in the room with us 1,000%.

Angela Caldwell: Um, we, if you give me another couple hours someday, I'm gonna go off on what social media did to our society, because it was like it's the Wild West, and everyone said, "Hey, look at all these things you can do," and we all went nuts with it, with no training, no regulations, no rule book, no limits, no...

Angela Caldwell: I mean, this was a terrible idea. And so now, the, the g- the parent generation that, that kind of got introduced to social media as kids, they're doing such a better job now. So our, what are we ca- I think we're calling them the Gen Alpha the younger, the little, my kids, like the, the seven- and eight-year-olds, oh my gosh they're our hope.

Angela Caldwell: Luke Skywalker, they're our hope. So it's because the parents, j- the parent generation of those kids are the ones that got burned by social media, right? And they're the ones that learned the hard lessons. And so they're, they are much better with limits and rules, and no, you can't have a device until you're 35.

Angela Caldwell: Uh, right? So, um, so they're [00:21:00] doing much better. But absolutely- External influences, we're talking about social media right now, but the social media's just the new you know, the neighborhood, the school, the church, the temple, the the theater company, you know, the, the sports team. Like, it's the e- external influences are a part of family.

Angela Caldwell: They're, they're one of the very close circles of influence. Um, and so families are having to do what they shouldn't have to do. They're having to navigate around, um, all these other voices that are in the room with their, with their kids and their spouses and their loved ones. Yeah. It's, um, it adds a layer to the therapy, for sure.

Dori Durbin: Is that something you have to tell them to just stay off of when you're in therapy? 

Angela Caldwell: Anybody who knows me knows that I hate social media. Oh, really? So when I, when I say, "Stay off social media," everyone's like, "Yeah, yeah. We know how you feel, Angela." So yes, I tell everyone to stay off social media.

Angela Caldwell: Um, n- it's, it is, uh, it is something I say, but it's also it's... i, I don't, I get less satisfaction and I think my families get less satisfaction with me telling them to do something rather than [00:22:00] me saying, "Hey, can we take a look? So what... When you're on social media and now it's time to gather as a family, how do you feel?

Angela Caldwell: Like, what are you, what are you bringing to everybody? How do you, how are you looking at yourself?" And as you and everyone knows, social media has placed this new demand on us, um, and I, there's all these great books that are being written, all these great authors are putting words to it. My words for it are they're demanding that we all be incredible.

Angela Caldwell: Mm-hmm. That we all be the most spectacular, interesting human that ever lived. And so we're all in the... Now, now we're, like, accidentally in this race to who's the most interesting human? And who's the most... and oh, and by the way, we also have to, like, superchar- charge and optimize and maximize, and y- we don't.

Angela Caldwell: We don't have to do all of that. We could, we don't have to be super special all the time. And, and kind of back to your question, the way that's being kind of brought into the family is it, now they're all competing with each other, right? Mm-hmm. So now this one has to be more special than that one, or that one's using that one for content because it's, it'll boost their [00:23:00] likes and followers and whatever it is.

Angela Caldwell: And it's, yeah, it's, um, it's like a- It's like chicken pox. It's like this annoying disease that gets into families, and I wish I could get rid of it, I don't know, Dori. I'm not giving up. I'm still on a crusade to, to eradicate social media. 

Dori Durbin: I'll 

Angela Caldwell: do it someday.

Dori Durbin: I'd be happy to give you those two hours so we can help you do that. 

Dori Durbin: Well, Angela, I'm always curious about the lessons that experts wish that kids knew earlier. So what's something you wish every parent intentionally taught their child at a young age that would prevent a lot of these challenges that families you see now are having?

Angela Caldwell: Oh my gosh, I love that question. So the first thing that came to mind, I wish... Okay, so almost every moment of childhood, those of, th- those of you listening who have, like, little, little kids- Mm-hmm ... you will so relate to this.

Angela Caldwell: Every moment of childhood is an emergency, right? So they need to know right now if they can go to the birthday party on Saturday. Right now they have to know, or they need, they [00:24:00] need a popsicle. It's hot. Where are the popsicles? We and they need an answer from you right now. Like, everything is an emergency, right?

Angela Caldwell: And we, right now, we can kinda laugh at it and remember it. Those of you who are in it, like, can feel it, right? But your nervous system responds to that as a parent. When your kid comes to you with all this stress and pressure, right? You actually sort of secrete a, a nice amount of cortisol in your own body, and you go, "Ugh!"

Angela Caldwell: And you kind of react to the emergency. Now, some of us make the mistake of reacting to the emergency by answering it, by agreeing suddenly that it's an emergency, and we must get you a popsicle right now, right? And we go like this, "Okay, h- just get- hold on, g- you know what? I j- let me just finish this. One second.

Angela Caldwell: J- hold on." And we don't kind of, like, do that with our voice, right? Yeah ... others of us respond a g- a different way, also agree that it's an emer- an emergency, but we s- respond like a- Like the way a doctor slaps a patient out of shock and so we, and so we do this thing as parents where we sort of a- accidentally agree that this is an emergency, and [00:25:00] it requires us to respond with the same inflection of voice that you're using, and the same gestured, animated, hand movements.

Angela Caldwell: And instead, I wish that we taught our kids, "That's not an emergency." Maybe we should write that down and put it on the fridge. "That's not an emergency," right? Yeah. So, I was joking with a friend the other day that we have a Band-Aid rule in our house. And we use this rule that's like, that when I'm like doing a podcast or with a client, uh, online or something, if I'm uninterruptible, right?

Angela Caldwell: So we have to help our kids understand because the truth is, if the house is on fire, I'm interruptible, right? There's really no such thing as uninterruptible, but I want them to know I'm uninterruptible unless it can't be solved with a Band-Aid, right? 

Dori Durbin: Oh, 

Angela Caldwell: yeah. Sure. If it's a Band-Aid, go get the Band-Aid.

Angela Caldwell: I'm not helping you. If it's bigger than a Band-Aid, interrupt me, right? So I, I kind of, I wish more families would teach kids some version of a Band-Aid rule, right? If you're hungry, that's not an [00:26:00] emergency. If your friend wants you to come over, that's not an emergency. If the dog is peeing on the, on your computer, that's an emergency, right?

Angela Caldwell: Like, and kind of like help kids understand what is an emergency and what's not an emergency, because what I'm seeing- You know what I'm s- I'm realizing as I'm talking to you, I'm seeing it a lot lately, and I didn't used to see it as much. 

Dori Durbin: Mm. 

Angela Caldwell: I'm seeing a lot of highly anxious parents who are accidentally agreeing that everything is an emergency.

Angela Caldwell: One thing that I want... You, you asked about kids, what we could teach our kids, but I also wanna teach parents. Negative feeling states are not an emergency. In fact, sometimes it's better that you let your kid endure a, some emotional pain, endure some negative feelings, right?

Angela Caldwell: Being hurt and sad and angry, those are not emergencies. Being scared because an adult is hurting me, that's an emergency, right? Almost [00:27:00] all the other feelings are not emergencies, and I do see more and more parents acting as if my kid feeling bad, sad, mad, hurt, guilty, can never happen. Oh, my God, get to the, you know, parent ER.

Angela Caldwell: Let's get rid of this negative feeling state. That, I want parents to, to teach themselves. Your kid having a bad feeling is not only not an emergency, it's necessary for healthy development. 

Dori Durbin: It's... Oh, my goodness. You've said so many great things. Just so that- 

Angela Caldwell: I hope so. 

Dori Durbin: You're right, though. I think we have so many parents who are so stressed out, and it, it is like they need to respond.

Dori Durbin: They are responding with that same urgency, and the kids are learning it, and that's gonna continue. It's like this generational trend all of a sudden, right? 

Angela Caldwell: Yes, yes, and you're seeing this, the explosion of anxiety disorders. And I mean, don't get me started on what COVID did to us. COVID was an emergency.

Angela Caldwell: It was a giant global emergency, and so all of us had [00:28:00] our... We didn't blink for three months. Remember the first, the early ti- And so our kids are looking at us going like, "Oh, my God," and we're looking at our kids going, "Oh, my God." Right? So we, we kind of all got, like, this flood of cortisol for a while. I still think we're coming down from that emergency, you know?

Angela Caldwell: And, and, and all the, all, and all the things that came with that, and we're still kind of... And oh, God. Then we all read all the books and all the, and saw all the TikToks and saw all the Instagrams and found out what a terrible parent we are next to all these golden, shiny parents that are doing it right.

Angela Caldwell: And then now we're freaking out that we're not the golden, shiny parents, and so we tighten the grip on our kids. And oh, my God, my kid feels bad. Instagram's gonna find out that I'm a terrible mother, right? 

Dori Durbin: True, though. This is... We're laughing, but that's the feeling underneath everything is that, that stress and anxiety the need to solve the situation, what it's gonna look like.

Dori Durbin: All those pieces are real. 

Angela Caldwell: Yes. I, yes.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. If you could put one message into a kid's mind, what would that message be? So if it was something they could hear over and over again, what would that message be? [00:29:00]

Angela Caldwell: Okay. I'll give you one, but before I do- 

Dori Durbin: Yeah

Angela Caldwell: This book that I have coming out is The Four Messages, and it's, it's so ironic that you would ask me that because there are four. And, and and I, I have this idea that if you can instill these four messages into a kid's mind crystallize them, make them so that the kid takes them for granted, right?

Angela Caldwell: That they don't even think about it. Like, really crystallize these messages, that you're golden. That, that, you know, like, like life will be easy and you'll live in a mansion on a hill. I don't know. Like, what, like, but your problems will be solved. Um, and so you say one, so I'm, so when you said, "What's one message?"

Angela Caldwell: I, I immediately went to my four messages. You can give 

Dori Durbin: me all four. It's fine. 

Angela Caldwell: If you want. Well, here they are, and then maybe I can use it as a teaser for my book coming out. So, um, the first one is I exist. That is, seems so, if you're, if you heard that just now and you thought, "Well, that's stupid, of course I exist," then your parents did a good job, because I can't tell you the number of people that feel like no one is seeing and hearing them, that feel like they speak and no one hears it, that they arrive in a room [00:30:00] and no one, that no one sees them, that if they died, no one would notice.

Angela Caldwell: I can't tell you how many people feel like they don't exist. So number one, I exist. Number two, I'm ordinary. The things that are happening to my body happen to everybody's body. The experiences I have on a daily basis, everybody has them on a daily basis. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing weird.

Angela Caldwell: I'm not a freak. I'm ordinary. Number two, I'm safe. The world has dangers in it, and my parents know what to do. I'm safe. And number four, and I hope you notice that I'm making it the least priority actually. You would think it would be the top priority, but it's the least priority because those three have to be instilled.

Angela Caldwell: Number four is I am loved, right? That's an, that's the one we focus on a lot. That's the one we're kind of naturally good at, right? But that's actually the fourth most important. The other three are more important. 

Dori Durbin: Oh. So say them all in or- order for me one more time. 

Angela Caldwell: I exist. I am ordinary. I am safe. I am loved.

Dori Durbin: Those are amazing. And so simple, [00:31:00] rememberable, but oddly, how hard is it for us to keep that in pl- in focus? 

Angela Caldwell: Oh, it's the hardest job in the world. That's, that, that's what we all say, right? All of us parents, we go, "What? What? What am I supposed to do? I have to come home with this crying, pooping blob of human, and I have to turn them into a voting citizen?

Angela Caldwell: How do 

Dori Durbin: that?" Well, it's not with popsicles. Angela, you have so much great energy and enthusiasm for your job. I know there's listeners right now who they're thinking about it. They're like, "You know, it'd be nice to kind of get some help to find a way to just reach out to Angela." What is the best way for them to do that? 

Angela Caldwell: I am, much to my dismay, very easy to find online.

Angela Caldwell: So, so I have, I have friends and colleagues who've helped me with this. I, my name is Angela Caldwell, and I run the Caldwell Family Institute, and that, that's the, the Caldwell Family Institute, all one word. That's my website, and everything is on there. My email's on there. My phone number's on there. My, my socials that I just trashed, th- [00:32:00] those are on there.

Angela Caldwell: And e- I'm very reachable. I'm, I'm actually quite easy to find online. 

Dori Durbin: Are you okay with questions, email questions, just like- 

Angela Caldwell: I get them all the time. I love them. I love them. I, I, in fact, I should probably put a limit on them, I love them so much. Yes, email me questions. 

Dori Durbin: Perfect. So as we wrap up, I still have one final question for you, Angela.

Dori Durbin: So this is a hard one because you've given us so much good content already. So what is one small step a parent who's listening today could take to strengthen their connection and reduce some of that conflict or tension in their homes?

Angela Caldwell: Okay. One small step that a parent can take is slow down. Slow down. And it, this goes back to what we were talking about with emergencies, and the sense of urgency is almost always not real. Almost always. For your kid, it's real. Your job is to teach them how to move a lot [00:33:00] more slowly through the world.

Angela Caldwell: We do, right? Think about how, i- isn't that, you know, when, when toddlers, like they run to everything? Remember how they would say, "I'm gonna go get my toy," and they run to their toy? And they learn over time, you can if you want to, but you don't have to. You don't have to move so quickly through the world.

Angela Caldwell: This emotion that you're having, it's, we can slow down. We can slow the moment down. There's, we do have time, and we do have space, and we do have capacity. Slow down. 

Dori Durbin: Oh, I love it. Awesome. Angela, you have given us, like I said, so many tools. Can you tell us really quick the titles of your books that you have out, and the one that's coming up?

Angela Caldwell: I, it's my first one, right? My first one coming out, it's, uh, it's the first in a series that I'm trying to work on. The series is called The Village Series. And then, uh, the title of the book, well, so far, we'll see what the editors think, but the title of the book's right now, the title of the book is The Four Messages.

Dori Durbin: Awesome, and when is it supposed to come out-ish? 

Angela Caldwell: Hopefully this year. Okay. That's what we're shooting for, hopefully this year. Look for me, guys. 

Dori Durbin: Awesome.. that's [00:34:00] amazing. I'm excited for that to come out for you.

Angela Caldwell: Thank you. Thank you, and you've got a lot of experience. I might be picking your brain. 

Dori Durbin: . Absolutely. Well, thank you for your time today, Angela. Thank you so much for just what you've given to the parents

Angela Caldwell: thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity, Dorie.

Angela Caldwell: It was fun. 

Dori Durbin: So parenting isn't just about getting everything right. It's about learning, growing, repairing, and reconnecting along the way. And honestly, parents, when you can look back at your day and say, "Hey, I kept learning, I kept loving my kids, and I kept going," well, hey, that is good parenting. We'll talk to you soon