Dori. Durbin: Hello, and welcome to That's Good Parenting, the podcast where we search for simple steps to reduce your parenting stress. I'm Dori Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, podcaster, and of course, the host of this show. I help family-focused professionals kid-size emotional concepts into children's books that kids can actually use and reread over and over again.

Dori. Durbin: Today's conversation fits so well into this whole mission. I'm joined by Melissa Schulz, a parenting coach, board-certified behavior analyst, and the founder of Confidently Momming, and a mama herself of three. Melissa helps parents of strong-willed, highly sensitive, and neurodivergent children better understand the why behind challenging behaviors so that families can have more calm, connection, and confidence at home.

Dori. Durbin: And there's one thing that really stood out for me about Melissa that happened even before our interview, and that's that good parents are already good at raising good kids. They simply haven't been given the right tools yet. [00:01:00] And oh man, Melissa, I need to know those tools. So welcome to the show. 

Melissa Schulz: Hi.

Melissa Schulz: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. 

Dori. Durbin: I am so thrilled to have you, and I think there's so many parents right now who are like, "Ooh, hey, that's my kid. That's my life. This is something I need." So before we get into all those questions can you share with me a little bit more about who you serve and what you do specifically?

Melissa Schulz: Yes. , So, I think the first thing to know about me is that I have three kids. I'm a mom of three. My oldest is 12, uh, which is so old, and he's almost as tall as me, and I'm like really offended by it. I'm trying to grow, guys.

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. I have a 10-year-old daughter, and I, uh, my youngest is five, and d- two of my kids are neurodiverse, and the other one is very strong-willed.

Melissa Schulz: Even though I have been working with families and kids with all the behaviors for the past 20-plus years, all of those behaviors still happen in my house as well. And so, um, my passion is really helping parents. Like, you know, just some kids, it's not the kid's fault, it's not the parent's fault, they just have bigger needs [00:02:00] and bigger behaviors, and I talk to so many families where the parents are blaming themselves- feeling so stressed out, you know, like, just feeling lots of shame and guilt that their kids- not really knowing why their kid's doing that, and it sucks away all the joy, right? We're just, like, waiting for them to somehow grow out of it, and then we just wait their whole life, and we look back, and we missed out on all the joy of all the different phases.

Melissa Schulz: Uh, I mean, every phase has challenges, but there's so much more joy available. So I love helping parents understand exactly why their kids are doing all the crazy things they're doing, 'cause kids do crazy things. Mine too, right? They're not perfect little robots. They're little imperfect humans. And once you understand the why, then it's much easier to figure out h- the best way to respond in a way that helps you, like, be more connected, have a better relationship with your child, and actually teaching them how to behave better, not just, like, punishing or taking things away or yelling, which sometimes stops it in the moment, but it doesn't really teach your kid anything.

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. So [00:03:00] it's interesting, you are being very honest about your feelings as a parent, and one of the things I thought about was, have you ever thought to yourself, "Hey, I know exactly what to say here, because I do coach all these other people, and I know what the right answer is," and you use it, and then it totally humbles you because it just doesn't work?

Melissa Schulz: My kids keep me on my toes 100%. , I would say, like, I don't usually use, scripts. Mm-hmm. So never am I gonna be like, "Say this exact thing to your kid." Um, I have, like, some sentence starters that I teach my clients. But I think, like, part of it, uh, my kids have higher needs, and a lot of things I try does not work the first time.

Melissa Schulz: Of course, 'cause maybe they're growing, or I'm, maybe I'm not in the right mindset place. Um, but when that happens, um, I still feel confident, 'cause that, that is just like a- I think a lot of times when we try something with our kids and things get worse or it doesn't work, we feel bad and we kinda like drop what we're doing and we step back.

Melissa Schulz: And so with all of my experience I have learned that, okay, if I did [00:04:00] something that didn't work, like that's okay. Why didn't it work? What's different? What are they thinking? And so I'm able just to stay really curious in all the moments where I make mistakes, and often it's like, oh, I was sounding a little bit irritated.

Melissa Schulz: Or oh, like, you know, I am like really distracted 'cause I'm trying to get this done and they're trying to tell me something, like what do I wanna do? So often it's a me problem and not necessarily a them problem when things go wrong. Which actually I love, 'cause I can change what I'm doing, right? The only thing I have control over is my own behavior.

Melissa Schulz: You can't actually con- you know, physically control another person's behavior. So yes, I mess up all the time, but I have learned not to like get stuck in like the guilts and just instead be curious about what's going on. Sometimes it's that like what worked for my kid yesterday doesn't work anymore, and I'm really sensitive to that.

Melissa Schulz: So if that happens, I'm just like, "Okay, cool. Well, let's learn the new thing. No problem 

Dori. Durbin: So let's give the audience a few examples of this. Let's say, you're trying to get to school, and what's happening that's not allowing you to do that? [00:05:00] And how do you handle that?

Melissa Schulz: Yes. Okay. So trying to get to school is different, it's difficult for- has been difficult for all of my kids for different reasons. Mm-hmm. I think that's one of the biggest things people are surprised by, is I actually parent all three of my kids very differently. So they could do the exact same thing, but I know the way their brain works, I know why they're doing it, and it's different for all of them.

Melissa Schulz: So they each kind of have a different mom. None of them is the mom that I, like, really wanted to be or thought I would be, you know, coming into parenting with so much experience. But it's like the mom they need. So like I have one kid who for a while hated school. In some ways it w- is 'cause, uh, that child was neurodivergent, and so the, the, it wasn't a good fit.

Melissa Schulz: And so every morning was just like a lot of complaining about going to school. And so that one, when it's just like complaining, uh, uh, on the back end we really worked on how to find a better fit for him and advocate for that, which actually solved the problem long term. That's not an issue anymore.

Melissa Schulz: In those moments, for him, since I knew the why, it was more like, "Yeah, I know. Sometimes we don't wanna go to stuff we have to do," and [00:06:00] I'm like loving but also like firm. Uh, 'cause that's what that kid needs, right? I have another kid with very severe separation anxiety, where we've, mornings have been much harder in my home than most people's homes because so everything's great when that child arrives, but there's, the whole getting there is really challenging.

Melissa Schulz: So for that, I'm responding to that differently 'cause it's coming from a different place, right? So for that one, I work a lot on myself in the morning before this child gets up so that I can be regulated and not immediately triggered. I have a really anxious brain, so this child's anxiety sometimes triggers my anxiety and now we're both just really anxious and no one's in charge.

Melissa Schulz: So I do a lot of work on myself to stay, like, calm and regulated. So I, like, really value my morning routine so then I can be my best self for this person on those hard mornings. And it's been many years. Uh, sometimes when you have kids with, like, a diagnosis, th- they don't, the behavior doesn't go away magically, even if you're doing the right thing.

Melissa Schulz: But it has definitely gotten better over the years, and I've always felt good with how I'm handling it. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. [00:07:00]

Melissa Schulz: So I had a whole other plan for that kid to make our mornings easier. 

Dori. Durbin: N- not to interrupt you, 'cause I wanna hear about the other kid. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: But I'm curious, when they're experiencing that kind of anxiety- Yeah

Dori. Durbin: you said you have to kind of understand what they're thinking. What, for your child, I know every child's gonna be a little different.. For your child what did you figure out was the trigger for the anxiety? Was it actually going to school? Was it just the separation itself? Like, what did- 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah.

Melissa Schulz: So for a lot of kids with, like, extreme separation anxiety, that like, there's very normal phases, right, that a lot of kids have and then there's more extreme, which is what this child has, happens to have. And, It's almost like it sends them into fight or flight Right? So, like, it's perceiving separating from parents into a...

Melissa Schulz: This is a, it's, like, a very specific situation, 'cause it would happen at church too. Separating from my parents into a big social situation with lots of other kids where it's kinda loud and, like, maybe a little bit chaotic, that is the specific trigger for that child. And that, g- heading into that [00:08:00] environment basically sends that child into fight or flight, which is, like, that, our survival instinct, right?

Melissa Schulz: Like, we sense, like, a bear is coming to kill us, so all the blood leaves our brain. It goes into our arms and legs so we're, like, ready to run. Which is heartbreaking to see your child doing that every day when you go to school and ch- like, your basic places. And I mean, it makes you just not wanna go anywhere, honestly.

Melissa Schulz: Um, but then that kid doesn't get that practice that, like, it actually is safe, right? So then your, your world just shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. So for that child, right, we just make sure we have lots of support on the other end, and we stay very calm and safe.

Melissa Schulz: But also very, like, "Hey, it's okay to be scared, and we're still gonna go to this place," right? We'll just, "Let's just focus on the next thing," right? We don't have to worry about going to school. Let's just brush our

Melissa Schulz: each step, right? Step by step. 

Melissa Schulz: And that, over time, with a, I mean, with a lot of other stuff that we do, has, like, really helped.

Dori. Durbin: Awesome. Yeah. And your other child? 

Melissa Schulz: Now, my other one, my strong-willed one, just, you know, more of the typical five-year-old stuff. He just, like, you [00:09:00] know, doesn't wanna get dressed quickly, or wants to play instead, or, like, really wants to cuddle instead of getting ready, or doesn't want anything for breakfast.

Melissa Schulz: So for him, we, we have, like, little sticker charts that work well for him to get him to be more independent. He really likes us to do everything. And then a lot of reminders, redirection when he's off task. And then, what works for all of my kids in the morning,, and what I recommend for most kids, this is something that your people could do, Mm-hmm

Melissa Schulz: is in general I do so much coaching on morning routines and bedtime routines. 

Melissa Schulz: And what those have in common is it's, like, a lot of activities that our kids don't really like, right? So just, like, getting dressed and putting on our clothes or our pajamas, brushing our teeth, brushing our hair. Kids don't really care about any of that, and they don't like it.

Melissa Schulz: And it's to go somewhere they would rather not go, right? No kid wants to go to bed. Bed is the best. Don't know what they're talking about. I love sleeping, right? They're gonna appreciate that later. But at these ages, or at least my younger two, right, bed is terrible. And a lot of kids would just rather stay at home playing than get in the car and go.

Melissa Schulz: Even if they like school, they'd still rather maybe stay at [00:10:00] home with their parents. So it's, like, a lot of things they don't wanna do to go a place they would rather not go. Mm. So you can see how, like, from the kids, like, of course there's gonna be a lot of power struggle, right? And then usually in the morning, parents are often, like, stressed out.

Melissa Schulz: We're trying to get ourselves ready. We don't wanna be late, so it's, like, very high pressure. So that's why that's kinda like a recipe for a lot of power struggles and r- tough dynamics. And then at bedtime, often we're so exhausted. We just don't have the energy to keep dealing with this, right?

Melissa Schulz: We're so tired from the whole day. So we're not, like, our best selves at bedtime either often. And so something I would recommend to everyone, it's like we wanna find something in it for our kids. Mm. Like, what's in it for them? You're asking them to do stuff they don't care about, to go somewhere they don't wanna go.

Melissa Schulz: And, like, for my examples, my kids, uh, especially the separation anxiety, that's emotion. You can- you can't meet emotion with ra- I can't rationalize and say, "Hey, remember yesterday, as soon as you got there you were great. Remember?" W- which is true every day. It doesn't matter in that moment, 'cause when you're in fight or flight, there's no blood in your brain.

Melissa Schulz: Your br- that logical center in [00:11:00] your brain that isn't even fully developed till you're 25 is not getting any blood. It's not working well. So you can't, like, logic and reason with an emotional brain, right? Um, but for that kid, that kid loves, there's, like, a park next to their school. So we had, "Hey, once we're ready, we're gonna go play at the park," right?

Melissa Schulz: Mm-hmm. "And so if you get ready fast, we'll have more time to play at the park. And if you take a long time, okay, I'm just gonna... I'm not gonna nag you. I'm just gonna be like, 'Hey, remember, I really wanna, like, you know, beat you in the race,' or, like, 'Who's gonna get to the swing first?'" Yeah. And so trying to, like, make it fun and having it something in there for them.

Melissa Schulz: Like, at night, uh, with my five-year-old, we do, like, he loves reading books, right? So that's, like, what he's earning, right? If you get your pajamas on really quick, then we're gonna have time to read lots of books. If you lollygag, which he likes to do, right, we're not gonna have time to read books. And so I'm not like, "Put on your pajamas.

Melissa Schulz: Put on your pajamas. Put on your paj-" I'm like, I'm just sitting there, like, "Ooh, that book looks really good. Ooh, I wonder what you're gonna pick. Oh, I hope we have time for two books. I hope you go super fast." And so that now we're on the same [00:12:00] team, and we're not, like, butting heads so much. 

Dori. Durbin: So this is part of your routine now.

Dori. Durbin: This is- 

Melissa Schulz: Oh, yes ... 

Dori. Durbin: kind of what... 

Melissa Schulz: Mm-hmm. This is what we do, yeah, all the time. 

Dori. Durbin: And do you feel like you use a lot of routine, um, development with your clients as well? 

Melissa Schulz: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, routines are, like, when you have the right ones that work for your kids, it's kind of like the un- the ultimate hack. I hate the word hack, I think it's overused.

Melissa Schulz: But, like, that's how all of our brains work, right? Mm. It's like, it just, um, it saves calories in your brain if you have a routine. So it's really helpful. I don't have to rethink every single night of a way to get my kid into bed. I already know what works. And it doesn't work every single night, and the nights it doesn't, I just get curious, and I'm like, "Huh, I wonder what was different about tonight?"

Melissa Schulz: But most of the time it works really well. Yeah. When it stops working, I'm gonna find what, what works next. Yeah. So routines, also, our kids love the routine. They like to know, right? They wanna know, okay, yeah, I have to, like, brush my teeth and then do this, but then I always get this fun thing. So like it's worth it.

Melissa Schulz: And then the [00:13:00] more practice they get with those habits that they don't really like, the easier it becomes for them and then the less of a power struggle. Right? At first when they're learning to brush their teeth, that's a big laborious task. It's a lot to ask. They're having to expend a lot of effort to get themselves dressed.

Melissa Schulz: But us, like right? You can do that in your sleep. We've done it so many times, it's very easy. It's very low effort. So the more your kids practice those routines, doing them independently, over time it gets easier and over time you don't have to reinforce it as much, 'cause it's just not, they're not having to do that much work.

Dori. Durbin: So if I was a listener who had a kid that was, this was just a massive power struggle. Something- Yeah ... every day was a massive p- power struggle- Yeah ... how would I start to identify what it is that is the dangling magical carrot for them? How do you start to put that into a routine?

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. So, this is where it really depends. And honestly, like I wish I could give you an answer, but I think partly what's going wrong right now in the parenting space is we are giving like an answer, like, "Oh yeah, this will work for every kid." 

Melissa Schulz: And the people I work with, when you have a strong-willed [00:14:00] kid, a kid who's really sensitive and more emotional or a kid who has ADHD or autism, right?

Melissa Schulz: The typical parent, and I'm doing air qu- I know this is audio. I'm doing air quotes- ... around typical. Uh, I can't say the word normal or typical without air quotes because I'm not normal for sure. But, um, the, there are things that work for like the normal, typical kids. But like the general generic strategies don't work for these kind of ki- like I call them the high-needs kids.

Melissa Schulz: They just have bigger emotions, bigger needs. They're great kids, great parents. But this is not like a cookie cutter thing. So when I am finding what motivates each child, I'm really looking very spec- that's my first question is like, "Why are they doing this and what are they getting out of it?" Mm-hmm.

Melissa Schulz: And that can be different for every single... Like you could have three kids doing the exact same behavior, it looks the same, but they're all doing it for different reasons. So that's why I'll never say, "Hey, if your kid's tantruming, do this." I'm like, no, your c- kid could be tantruming 'cause they're hungry, so then like feed them sooner, right?

Melissa Schulz: Then maybe they're tantruming 'cause they, they found that when they have a big tantrum they get lots of attention, right? Okay, we're gonna have a if [00:15:00] you give them a Lego for listening, that is not gonna match up 'cause what they really want is attention. So it really depends on the kid. That's like a big thing I have in my, um, programs is, like, I have a lot of tools to make it easy for parents to understand why.

Dori. Durbin: Mm-hmm. 

Melissa Schulz: You just go in and like, "Here's what my kid's doing." And then I have a tool that, like, will ask you questions about your kid, and then give, "Here's why." And then you can use that. Okay, if that's their motivation and the why, now how do I respond? And that's like a big missing piece in a lot of the more, like, general parenting things out there.

Dori. Durbin: So when it, when it comes to kids feeling overwhelmed and, like, very emotional- 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah ... 

Dori. Durbin: i've always struggled this, with this because I think my kids were normal. I'm, you know, I'm not sure. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. The air quotes around the normal. That's right. 

Dori. Durbin: Quotes around normal, right? 

Melissa Schulz: Yes. 

Dori. Durbin: But I often wonder, like, how do you tell the difference between this is defiance and intentional versus- Yeah

Dori. Durbin: overwhelmed and just can't... Your- Yes ... flight. Yeah. W- [00:16:00] how do you tell the difference? 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. So that is another really good question. G- and that is something that I tell my parents. Like, I... You're gonna respond differently, right? If they are coming from a place of strong emotion where the emotion has taken over, you don't logic that.

Melissa Schulz: You don't consequence that, right? We have to be present with the emotion and regulate, and then teach better skills to address the emotion. But then there's things they do on purpose. Like, they look at you and they, like, color on the wall, right? Or they look at you and say, "No, I'm not gonna do that." That, we're gonna handle differently because that's them, like, using their brain and, like, testing things out and seeing what's gonna happen.

Melissa Schulz: And so when I do work on plans, it is very different if they're in their emotional brain or their logical brain. And so I think it is different for every kid. Most- when I describe it, most parents can start having a sense, right? Does it seem like they're out of control, or does it seem that, like, they know what they're doing, right?

Melissa Schulz: And often it starts they know what they're doing, and then maybe you... There's a consequence, and then they... Then it turns into emotion, right? It can kinda go back and forth a little bit. And so it, it looks different in every kid, [00:17:00] but describing it like that can, you can have a sense of, like, where your kid might be, which brain they're using.

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you see the eye contact and then the action and you know. Yeah. Right. Like, use some of those visual cues a little bit. 

Melissa Schulz: Exactly. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. I like to ask questions before the interview, and one of the questions I asked you was that you wish that more podcast hosts would ask you how your work is different from other parenting coaches- 

Melissa Schulz: Yes

Dori. Durbin: out there. So let's ask you that. Yeah. How is your parenting different, Melissa, from other parenting coaches out there? 

Melissa Schulz: What a great question. 

Dori. Durbin: Thank you. 

Melissa Schulz: Um, yeah. So one of them is I really base everything on why your kid's doing it, not what your kid is doing. Kinda like I was describing. Mm-hmm. If you say, "My kid's having a tantrum," or, "My kid's having a hard time going to school in the morning," I'm not gonna say, "Oh, okay.

Melissa Schulz: Try this," everyone, right? I'm gonna say, "Tell me more," right? Well, I'm gonna figure out what brain are they in, right? Mm-hmm. What are they getting out of that? How are you responding that maybe is accidentally making that behavior worse even though you have really good intentions? So [00:18:00] many of us really good, smart parents that, like, love their kids more than anything, we accidentally get stuck in these, like, cycles without even realizing it.

Melissa Schulz: So one of my superpowers is like, oh, here's the cycle. And once you see it, it's much easier to break it. Just if you don't know, you don't know. Um, another really big thing, um, that I do that's different is, um, when I am taking clients through working on their child's behavior, we focus on the parent's response and emotions around the behavior first.

Melissa Schulz: So when I'm working with clients, they're like, "Oh my gosh, my kid, you know, just is like smacking me in the face. What do I do?" Right? I'm not gonna tell them what to do. I'm not even gonna start asking why. I'm gonna start with like, how does that feel?" Probably that's putting you into fight or flight because someone is attacking you.

Melissa Schulz: Even if they're two, you're still getting slapped, right? So you're probably feeling really frustrated and angry, and w- so we dig into that, like some of the stories their brain is telling them about the behavior that's making them be really frustrated and angry. 

Dori. Durbin: Mm. 

Melissa Schulz: And so first we actually work [00:19:00] on the parent's reaction because my goal is that we can be like, hey, whatever they're doing, they're doing their best.

Melissa Schulz: They're just having a hard time, right? It's not personal to me. It's not because I'm a bad mom. It's not because they're a bad kid. It's just they're missing some skills right now. And I can be really sad that they don't have those skills yet, and they're slapping me in the face, right? I can be sad about that, but it's not a personal failing, right?

Melissa Schulz: It's not like a huge problem. So what most of my clients will say is after we work on this, they'll come back and be like, "Hey, my kid had, you know, this huge meltdown in the grocery store, and I was like, 'This is okay. I got this.'" And they stay calm. Yeah. And you can imagine that the parent in that moment when their kid does melt down in the grocery store, who can tell themselves, "Okay, we're fine.

Melissa Schulz: We're safe, and I can handle this," that parent is going to respond to their child much more effectively than the parent who's really triggered and frustrated and embarrassed and angry, which is most of our human reaction to that kind of behavior. 

Dori. Durbin: The guilt that comes after that of- 

Melissa Schulz: And then the [00:20:00] guilt

Dori. Durbin: you think that you made the mistake. 

Melissa Schulz: The shame spiral after, right? Um- That then makes you not, like... And then when you're stuck in that shame spiral, you don't change. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. 

Melissa Schulz: You just beat yourself up. You're not able to, like think, okay, well what, I want my clients to, like look back, okay, well what did happen?

Melissa Schulz: Like yeah, meltdowns in the grocery store happen to all of us wh- when you have these types of kids. It happens to me still, right? So, like if it did happen, I just wanna learn from it, adjust my responding to my kid based on what I learned, and then try again next time. But most of us can't get to that point because we're just so bogged down in the shame.

Melissa Schulz: I think of shame as, like quicksand. Mm-hmm. And we just stay in it, and slowly it sucks us down, and you can't take action or move or change things when you're stuck in the quicksand. You just repeat, repeat that same cycle. 

Dori. Durbin: Oh, such a good image. So you're really telling us to be curious, to be- Yeah

Dori. Durbin: observant of- Yeah ... ourselves and them- Mm-hmm ... but also to have this calmness, this, I don't wanna say detached, 'cause you're, we're never detached from our kids, 

Melissa Schulz: but- yeah ... 

Dori. Durbin: from the [00:21:00] emotional attack as being personal. That's huge. Yeah. That's so different than just having something on the side to grab and say, "Okay, I'm gonna try this now."

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. It's, it's such self, more self-awareness. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. But, like a lot of us don't really know. Like, we're just told to be calm all the time, right? Yeah. Oh, just stay calm. Like, oh, well thank you. Like, if I knew how to do that, I would do that, right? Yeah. We don't... It's actually an emotion you can create in your body, right?

Melissa Schulz: Mm-hmm. So, the emotion's like, yeah, it's definitely not detached. I'm feeling lots of feelings, but the feelings I wanna feel I call them my Cs. Like, in those moments I wanna feel calm, I wanna feel compassionate- ... 'cause my kid is having a hard time. They're freaking out, right? They're not happy either.

Melissa Schulz: I wanna feel confident that I know what to do. Mm-hmm. Calm, confident, compassionate. There's one more, but I'm not gonna think of right now. Oh, and curious, and curious about why it's happening. And if I can feel a lot of those emotions in that moment, I'm gonna make much better decisions. I'm not gonna go into fight or flight- I'm gonna be able to, like, use my brain and respond well.

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. You're bringing back [00:22:00] memories of going to the grocery store, and I think every- Yeah ... kid, every parent has had this happen where the kid- Oh, 

Melissa Schulz: totally ... 

Dori. Durbin: melts down, and they're screaming- Yes ... and you're sweating because- Oh, my gosh ... you're trying not to react, and it's a very personal feeling. 

Melissa Schulz: Yes. 

Dori. Durbin: But to be able to step back and say, "Okay, I can evaluate this at a different level.

Dori. Durbin: I can not-" 

Melissa Schulz: Yes ... 

Dori. Durbin: own this personally," that's, that's such a, it's such a different feeling. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe our listeners have never even felt that. What would it feel like to feel like that for a mom? 

Melissa Schulz: It feels good, let me tell you. Yeah.

Dori. Durbin: Yeah, you, like you said, you probably feel more logical and- Yeah

Dori. Durbin: able to just make better decisions all the way around. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. Well, and honestly, like, if your kid is really escalated, then, and then usually that triggers us, so now we're really escalated, so now everyone's just escalated, right? So you kind of feed off of each other, and we all work ourselves all the way up.

Melissa Schulz: I talk with my hands a lot, so audio is hard for me, but guys, my hands are flying with the escalation. But if one of us can stay like a calm anchor, or your child can escalate some, but then they're gonna dr- come back to you. [00:23:00] So it's like you feel better the whole time. You don't later feel the shame because you didn't do anything, right?

Melissa Schulz: I mean, never am I gonna love and like be like, "Yay, another meltdown in the grocery store." Like, that's not what I'm saying. But it can be enough where I'm like, "Hey, I know how to handle this. Wish it wasn't happening, but I got this." And then you recover quickly and, like, instead of having that ruin the rest of the day, I'm like onto the, "Okay, let's go to the pool."

Melissa Schulz: Right? Let's go do something else fun. Like, that was a, we had a rough moment, and then the rest of the day can still be amazing. 

Dori. Durbin: I love that reframe and that new perspective for parents. Yeah. 

Melissa Schulz: That's really great. Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. Well, you know, as a children's book illustrator- coach, um, I absolutely love children's books because they allow us to teach big skills to kids- Yeah ... that they can really understand. So when I asked you what you wish every child understood before going to school- ... your answer was emotional regulation. Yes. So tell me, Melissa, why is emotional regulation such an important skill for kids?

Melissa Schulz: Yeah, I think it's an important skill for humans, honestly. One of [00:24:00] the biggest things I see now is like, you know, my generation, there was a, it was a lot of, like, the toxic positivity culture where it was like, you know, positive emotions only, right? Just be thankful, right? If you're gonna cry, like, go away.

Melissa Schulz: It w- very well-meaning adults w- and, like, I w- I love gratitude. I have... You know, that's so important. I wanna teach that to my kids, but we were going about it in the wrong way. We kinda taught kids, like, if you're feeling something that's not positive, something's wrong with you, and it's bad. And that kind of c- taught a generation to just shove all of their emotions or escape their emotions.

Melissa Schulz: And so not having a healthy relationship with emotions when they come up, and that's why my generation has so much anxiety and depression and, and addiction issues, I think. Um, because all of that comes from not being able to handle emotions in a healthy way. And so- Uh, so many people, I think now a lot of parents realize that, and they want, they realize the value of teaching that to their kids, but they don't know how 'cause they never learned it in the first place.

Melissa Schulz: So it's a lot... [00:25:00] I, I think it's a beautiful kinda cultural revival, at least in people that I'm working with or that are attracted to me of like, "I wanna learn how to do this for myself so I can teach my kids this. And I wanna go first as the parent. I don't want my kid to have to d- do all this work as an adult.

Melissa Schulz: I wanna do the work on me now, and they can grow up already knowing how to do this. Like, what a gift to have them not have to struggle and suffer and have to, invest time and money as a busy adult to do it. What if I can just teach my kid as they're growing up?" And so I think that's, like, one of the biggest challenges I see is, like, we're recognizing how important it is now, but, like, so many parents just don't know.

Melissa Schulz: Do 

Dori. Durbin: you think, um, the school-age child is really when those emotions, if they're not under control yet, that's gonna - appear the most frequently? 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah, I mean, I think, like, often we, you know, talk a lot about, like, the preschool age or whatever, like academics. Like, ready for school, ready for academics.

Melissa Schulz: And honestly, when my kids are those [00:26:00] ages, like, I don't really care about academics because they're... first of all, I, like, I want to teach my kids to be good humans that are, like, good friends and have those skills in general. That's more important to me than academics ever. And also, all the research shows that kids who have better emotional regulation skills sooner, they do much better in school.

Melissa Schulz: They have much better relationships, right? 'Cause if you have a kid who knows their alphabet but can't sit still or is pushing all their friends all day in kindergarten or first grade or fifth grade, right, they're not going to learn. They're not gonna... Right? And it's gonna be... I see a lot of schools now having a lot of social-emotional curriculum embedded in, like, the public school system, at least where I'm at, which is great.

Melissa Schulz: Um, but that's not w- that's a classroom. It's not like the one-on-one where a parent can teach them that one-on-one. And so a kid that does know how to follow directions most of the time how to, like, sit and focus as much as they can how to get along with other kids, how to manage when their schoolwork is really hard and they're [00:27:00] frustrated, right?

Melissa Schulz: Frustration tolerance is huge, right? I'm not gonna learn math if every time I'm frustrated, I rip up my paper, period. But if I know how to be like, "Okay, I'm feeling frustrated. Feeling frustrated is part of learning" the better I can, like, know that this is frustration and here's what I do when I'm frustrated, the more I'm going to learn academically, right?

Melissa Schulz: And the more I'm gonna do better in relationships, right? The more I can, we can disagree and I can be mad and not lash out at you. I can learn, I feel really mad right now. Here's what I do with my mad. That's gonna help you make more friends in school, that's gonna help you have, your kids have a better marriage later on, right?

Melissa Schulz: Have a, be better at parenting their own- your grandkids. And so that's really why I like to focus on that a lot. 

Dori. Durbin: So when parents try to teach emotional regulation, do you have any tips or pointers? Because I think a lot of parents, were afraid to give emotions names specifically in case that they were misreading what was going on.

Melissa Schulz: Mm. Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: So- 

Melissa Schulz: [00:28:00] So that's actually one of my biggest recommendations is name the emotions. Okay. Name them. Name all of them. So when they're little, I start with like the, you know, happy, sad, mad. Kind of like the basics, right? And not just the negative ones, the happy ones too. We want to know the, you know, all the emotions, or maybe those three to start.

Melissa Schulz: When they get good at... I like, you know, I love the Inside Out movies, so show those to your kids. Like, that's a good introduction. And then, you know, they get like, so they get good at those, and then you bring in the big emotion board, and you teach them all the other ones. So little kids, usually they, they really don't know what it is.

Melissa Schulz: Mm. They don't know what it's called. Um, so they learn it by feeling it and you naming it, and you're just gonna do your best, and you can usually probably tell if they're mad, sad, or happy, right? Mm. When they get older, most kids do not want to be told how they feel, which is true. I don't want, so but then I might be like, "Hey, if that happened to me, I might feel really left out or really jealous," right?

Melissa Schulz: It may- "Is that how you feel maybe?" And if they say, "No," I'm not like, "Yes, you do." I'm like, "Oh, tell me." You know, like, I, I want to learn. So I might just like bring it [00:29:00] up with maybe how I feel or, "Do you feel like that?" with a question mark. And then, and then see how that goes. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. So more of that curiosity that you're displaying- Yes

Dori. Durbin: to the parent and having that conversation with them. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. 

Melissa Schulz: But I will say especially with young kids, like one way I recommend teaching emotional regulation is reading all the books about it. 

Melissa Schulz: Like just reading all of them. Read about emotions all the time. Uh, I love recommending Daniel Tiger for little ones.

Melissa Schulz: It's like the more... They wanna hear it from us, but we... kids learn through songs and books and t- you know, like through a lot of different ways. Not lecturing. It's not... We can't lecture them, right? Even with some of my kids, some of my kids still don't like emotions, and so it's like I can talk about it for one minute.

Melissa Schulz: I can drop the little knowledge bomb for one minute, and I gotta make it count. So I'm like very succinct. And then we can go back to talking about whatever. So kinda knowing your kid. But yeah, like what are other creative ways? And I just love books in general and reading children's books, and there are so many good ones out there.

Melissa Schulz: So maybe like go to the library and just check them all out or, see which ones. Maybe [00:30:00] check Dori and all the great books she's helping people write on emotions. But yeah, that's like one huge way. And then you can even... Then you can like ask your kids about the book, right? So it's less like, confrontational or like intense as like, "Let's talk about mad."

Melissa Schulz: Instead we can talk about little Billy in the book that's mad because his, brother took his toy. Like, "Oh, that would make me mad too. Would that make you feel mad?" So I love books and, you know, certain TV shows or anything like that that helps that. We got the Daniel Tiger like sound- back when we had like CDs in the van, you know?

Melissa Schulz: I'm old. My older kids, we had... So we didn't have the Spotify that we do now. So yeah, I had the Daniel Tiger soundtrack, and we would play it on repeat in our van. And I know all the songs. I will not disturb you with them. But those songs are a really acute way, and almost every one is about how to handle a different emotion, so it's like very kid appropriate. 

Dori. Durbin: I do love that example. With my kids, we would take the picture books and not even read the words. And I'd say, "Hey, look at their face.

Dori. Durbin: What do you 

Melissa Schulz: think is wrong?" Yeah. Exactly. "

Dori. Durbin: Hey, well, look at this picture. What do you think is going on here?" Yeah. And usually they came up with their [00:31:00] own story, which was really fun. 

Melissa Schulz: Which is so fun. 

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. But I think you're right. Having those examples for them and kind of, again, being curious, asking questions- 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah

Dori. Durbin: that kind of thing is excellent. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. So that was like one of the first... Like when my, uh, one child was really struggling with that separation anxiety, like we have so many books on that. You know, we have so many books on anxiety and saying goodbye, right? So we would read about it all, 'cause that's a lot less like- Uh, I don't, like, intense for the child than, like, talking about why it's so hard to go to school every day.

Melissa Schulz: Instead, let's just read about all these other kids that also have that problem, and then they've all found solutions. And I love reading multiple books because, like, every author usually has, like, a different way of thinking about it or looking about it, so it, like, normalizes it for the child, right? If they're always reading books about emotions, now emotions are normal and okay, and you're getting lots of different suggestions.

Melissa Schulz: I always read them first to make sure I agree with, like, the suggestions of how it's handled, right? So I always recommend that. But there's so many good ones out there. Uh, and then your k- kid is just getting used to, like, yeah, these feelings are normal, and there's lots of different ways I can handle it.

Dori. Durbin: Love that. I'm [00:32:00] 100% on board with that

Dori. Durbin: so for the parents who are feeling overwhelmed right now- Yeah ... and they've tried a lot of things, they've tried the books, they've tried podcasts, they've tried charts, they've tried consequences, Mm-hmm ... they feel like they're just failing. 

Melissa Schulz: Yes. 

Dori. Durbin: What would you want that parent to hear from you today?

Melissa Schulz: Yes. So if that is you and you're listening, I want you to know that I know you're a really good parent who loves your kid so much. Like, I know that you're trying your best. I know how hard you're trying. I know personally and deeply how hard it can be, and so I just want you to know there's nothing wrong with you.

Melissa Schulz: You have no reason to feel guilt or shame, right? And you have a great, a great kid who's trying their best, too. I just... That's, like, really every parent that, that comes to me has that exact story. "I've tried everything. Nothing works," right? And, um, my encouragement is, like, don't stop, right? There is definitely something that works, and I can say this 'cause I've helped hundreds of, probably in the, maybe even thousands by now, uh, families find that thing that works for their [00:33:00] kid.

Melissa Schulz: But it only works if you keep going, right? Sometimes we're just like, "Nothing is gonna work," and then of course, if you think nothing's gonna work, you stop. Uh, and so I would love to talk to anyone. Um, that's totally my jam. If nothing has worked, like challenge me, tell me, right? You can prove, try to prove me wrong that it doesn't work, 'cause I, I definitely have everything in place for my clients where we find what actually does work.

Melissa Schulz: So I really wanna leave your clients with hope. And if you don't like me, there's other people out there that I'm sure are also doing really good stuff. No worries. But yeah, usually parents are surpri- once they finally find me and we start working together, one of the biggest things they say is they're surprised at how simple it is.

Melissa Schulz: Mm. 'Cause I think when we've tried some books and podcasts and stuff we think it's gonna have to be, we're gonna have to overhaul everything, right? We're gonna have to like throw away our screens and throw away all the sugar. You know, like we come up with like, we make it so complicated. Or like we read a whole book, and then we try to implement the whole book at once.

Melissa Schulz: Our kids hate it. We are overwhelmed, and [00:34:00] then something doesn't work right, and then the book can't answer your questions, and then you go back to where you were, and now you feel defeated and you wasted all that energy. Mm. And so what I do is the opposite of that. We pick one thing so you don't get... Like my whole goal is to keep parents out of overwhelm, keep it simple, and help them create a custom plan that actually works for their kid.

Dori. Durbin: Love that. I love that you, you're making it simple, because then you can continue to do it. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. And I think it's just fun. Like, I live this every day also, so it's not like I'm, I have a unique, like this was literally my career since I turned 18, right? And then I have happened to have kids that also have high needs.

Melissa Schulz: So it's not like I'm like, "Oh, this worked for my three kids, so I'm teaching you." It's like, no, no, no, I've done this with maybe 1,000 families by now, right? And also, I, I live it and I get it. Mm-hmm. And it's like, what's possible is like, I really do enjoy my time with them most of the time, right? I really do feel confident and calm most of the time, and I think [00:35:00] that's really like the goal is like I don't, we don't need perfect kids to be happy and enjoy it.

Melissa Schulz: But there's a lot of things we can do just to make it so much easier. 

Dori. Durbin: Yes. Okay, I know those listeners are listening, the ones who need you are listening carefully. How can they connect with you, find you, and find out more about what you do? 

Melissa Schulz: Yes. I, I am on Instagram and Facebook @confidentlymomming.

Melissa Schulz: I also have a free e-guide that I would love to offer to your listeners. It's how to get kids to listen. So it's like my three best tips on getting your kids to listen that works with the strong-willed, sensitive, and neurodiverse kids. And so you can go to my website, www.melischultz.com. Schultz is spelled weird, S-C-H-U-L-Z.

Melissa Schulz: Mm-hmm. And you can get that free e-guide. Uh, and when you download that, that actually gets you on my email list, which is a really good place to be, because I do pretty much every month a, a webinar or a behavior challenge, or I always have different things going on, uh, as support and resources. And so, yeah, that's a good way to get in my world and then get some help right now.

Dori. Durbin: I [00:36:00] love it. That's again, simple and connectable. 

Melissa Schulz: Simple. Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: So Melissa to close this out, what are one or two action steps that our listeners can take today, right after this podcast, as soon as they end, that is gonna help reduce some of that stress and just give them a better sense of control over themselves?

Melissa Schulz: Yes. Um, so I'm gonna give you two. Okay. The first one I'm gonna tell you is this is what I would tell, like, my best friend or my, one of my sisters, right? If we were having coffee and you're like, "I'm really struggling with my kid." It's a hold on, 'cause it sounds like a little more work, but it's worth it.

Melissa Schulz: But one of the, like, magical things to start with any time you have a kid who you're struggling with their behaviors is to add in five to 10 minutes a day, as many days as you can, of qual- like, magical one-on-one time. 

Melissa Schulz: And so here are the rules for the time. You are entering your child's world, whatever age they're in, whatever age they're at, and you are just doing basically whatever they want to do, right?

Melissa Schulz: So for one [00:37:00] of my kids, I might be playing Legos. For another child, we might be playing Uno. For another child, he might talk to me about Roblox nonstop for 10 minutes, right? Whatever it is, I'm just entering their world and connect, focusing on connection and enjoying them. So I'm not correct... As long...

Melissa Schulz: Unless there's huge behavior things, I'm not lecturing, I'm not correcting, I'm not like, "Oh, play it this way." I'm just kinda filling up that attention bucket and connecting with them. And so I know when you're overwhelmed, me telling you even to do something for five minutes a day feels like a lot. So I hear you.

Melissa Schulz: But what happens, if you're one of my people and you need this, it actually saves you so much time, because most families when they start doing this, and it doesn't have to be perfect, it just, uh, uh, as often as you can, real life you kn- you'll start noticing the behaviors get a little bit less intense and end a little faster.

Melissa Schulz: So you end up saving so much time. And, like, uh, Legos is not my first pick, but I would much rather play Legos than deal with, like, a big meltdown, right? And so that's kinda what you're getting to swap out for. [00:38:00] And honestly, when I... Like, some of the, my best moments of connection come from those times with my kids.

Melissa Schulz: It doesn't have to be long, right? I think sometimes we think we need to, like, go on a huge vacation or do this whole thing. It's like, if you do just five to 10 minutes a day as best as you can, one-on-one time can really change everything 

Dori. Durbin: But again, something that's so doable. Five minutes 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah.

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. I think the other practical advice I'm gonna give to your parents that are like this is you're probably not sleeping enough. So I think a lot of us are just trying to take care of everyone else all the time, right? So maybe we stay up late trying to just get the chores done, right? Or maybe that's, like, the only moment we have alone, so now we're, like, scrolling for, you know, an hour or two instead of going to sleep.

Melissa Schulz: And I get it, and I want you to have that time. But then what happens is you wa- don't get enough sleep. Maybe your sleep is interrupted because your child's not sleeping independently, and then you wake up and you're already empty. You're empty before the day begins. And then you're y- irritable.

Melissa Schulz: You're not very patient [00:39:00] because obviously you're, like, sleep deprived. And then you're mad at yourself, thinking somehow you should be able to be patient even though you're sleep deprived. So it's not sexy, but sleep is one of the biggest things I've found. If I can just help... Like, usually when I'm working with families, we work on bedtime and getting kids to sleep, uh, more independently, wherever works for their family.

Melissa Schulz: That's one of the first things we do. 'Cause if everyone is sleeping, everything is much easier. And I had two really hard sleepers, so I know this from a lot of personal experience as well. I'm, like, super nerdy about, I love all the bedtime sleep in- uh, sleep research, so I'm really nerdy about it. But yeah, that's, like, one of the biggest practical things is hey, maybe you scroll for 15 minutes or maybe you just do that laundry tomorrow.

Melissa Schulz: It's still... The dishes are always gonna be there, right? Maybe we just leave them a little bit longer and we get a little bit extra sleep, and then that is honestly gonna make everything feel easier. 

Dori. Durbin: You imagine a parent listening who's been stressed out, exhausted, gets an extra hour even- 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah ... 

Dori. Durbin: maybe 15 minutes of sleep.

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: So [00:40:00] much better. 

Melissa Schulz: It can really, uh, make a big difference. 

Dori. Durbin: Oh, I love those suggestions, Melissa. First of all, let me just thank you so much for giving us so many very doable action steps that people can just walk away from this podcast interview and try one of them, right? Yeah. Just one of them. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. 

Dori. Durbin: So thank you so much for giving those and providing those- You're welcome ... to us today. 

Melissa Schulz: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This was a pleasure. 

Dori. Durbin: Oh, thank you.

Dori. Durbin: And for those of you listening who are saying to yourselves, "Okay, I can do this. I can take one small step today and make my life better, which will inevitably make my kids' lives better," please do so. Try it. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be one small step.

Dori. Durbin: And then you can step back and you can say, "So that moment, that was good parenting."

Dori. Durbin: Yeah. We'll talk to you soon