Dori Durbin: Welcome to That's Good Parenting, the podcast where we search for simple steps to reduce your parenting stress. I'm Dori Durbin, children's book illustrator, author, coach, and podcaster. I help experts kid-size big ideas into children's books that can be used and enjoyed every day. Today, we're talking about something that every parent really wants for their children: confidence, resilience, independence, and happiness.

Dori Durbin: But here's the thing, most parents desperately want all those qualities, but they also want to protect their kids from struggle, disappointment, mistakes, and of course, failure. So how do we raise children who are emotionally strong and resilient without accidentally getting in the way of their actual growth?

Dori Durbin: Our guest today is Michal Guez, author of The Empowered Child: Parenting Principles for Raising Independent, Confident, Resilient, and Happy Kids. Michal helps parents understand how to raise children who are capable, emotionally empowered, resilient, and prepared for life. [00:01:00] Welcome to the show, Michal. 

Michal Gez: Thank you.

Michal Gez: It's such a pleasure to be here. I appreciate it. 

Dori Durbin: Absolutely. I just am excited because I most people don't just wake up one day and say, "Hey, I've decided to dedicate my life to parents, helping their kids become empowered." So there must be some sort of story behind it.

Dori Durbin: Could you share a little bit about your journey and what led you to this kind of work? 

Michal Gez: Yeah, of course. I'll be happy to do that. So first, I want to say a few things about myself. I'm a speaker, I'm a lawyer, I'm a mindset coach, and as you said, I'm the author of the book The Empowered Child. I specialize in parenting, self-development, career growth, and relationship, and I help both individual and corporations break through limitation and create meaningful change in their life.

Michal Gez: And the main problem that I address in my work is that in today's world, we tend to learn life most important lessons the hard way, usually after years of setback, failures, heartaches. And my [00:02:00] question is why? Why do we, and especially why do our children, have to stumble over and over again before we realize how to live well?

Michal Gez: Why do we accept that as an inevitable part of life? And the solution that I offer is ba- basically a very practical method of 30 principles to help children, and also adults, learn those lessons proactively and at an early age. And the focus is this, and I want you to imagine what would have happened if your child, at the age of five or, or six, could actually internalize the same life wisdom that took you years and years to study.

Michal Gez: And th- what I'm aiming at is really the creation of a life vest that will help children get those lessons early on. And you were asking about my background, and this is very interesting [00:03:00] because my background is very different. You know, I have decades of experience from, globe- legal and business world ranging from global corporations, startup companies, governments, working with foundation like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Michal Gez: So I really had the chance to work at very high stress level environments, working with very senior people, practicing the corporate world, which I'm so familiar of, and I could see working even with, the most senior high level people, how much childhood experiences shape them, how much childhood experience create the person they are, and how much limiting belief are installed in the very, very start.

Michal Gez: I could see that working in the corporate world. I could see that working with adults and individuals in my clinic, and [00:04:00] this what ... and I could also could see many people break down under pressure. And it doesn't matter how seemingly you know, successful you seem, at the end of the day, you know, we tend to learn those lessons very late in life.

Michal Gez: And I was also very curious about that. And at a certain stage in my life after achieving what the external world, you know, uh, maybe labeled as success, I really wanted to be in a position where I start giving those lessons early on, and I see every child as deserving to know those lessons early.

Michal Gez: Deser- deserving of having those life-affirming belief early on, and this is basically my goal. This is what I do. 

Dori Durbin: That's amazing. I think we're kind of in the same wavelength really as far as, like, get to the kids earlier, right? Get them help. Give them a base and an understanding earlier in life so that they don't have to go through the things that [00:05:00] we've had to overcome.

Michal Gez: Exactly. And at the end of the day, it's not, you know, it's not, like, bullet f- proof. At the end of the day, we're all gonna have regret, but if you could minimize the level of regret they're gonna have, if you can provide them-- You know, a lot of parents book focus on, fixing the problem, fixing the behavior.

Michal Gez: What are we doing when our child behaves like this? But the moment we build the act- the actual solid foundation from the very, very start, it makes a whole of a different ... And I see that with parents I work with. I see it also with my own children, and it's amazing because you're building kids that are resilience and that are able to face this world early on with all its challenges, with all the struggles that it holds.

Dori Durbin: Does that ever feel intimidating as a parent to have the kid have all of it together, [00:06:00] and you are kind of reliving, like, what your experiences were, and you're saying to yourself, "My goodness, this child, how are they so smart and so wise beyond their years?"

Dori Durbin: Have you seen that with your own kids

Dori Durbin: yeah. 

Michal Gez: Yeah, I could see that and I can ... You know, and there's always this question, um, you know, how do you know that it actually works? How can you know that this method work? And that's what I also say to parent. You know that it works when you start seeing in your child, at a rather early age, an emotional maturity you wouldn't expect from a child at his age, and I'll give you an example.

Michal Gez: So- There was this mother that, came back home. She had a really, really bad meeting. She was frustrated, and she shared that with, her friends or, you know, in the phone, and she had this, small girl. I think it- she was about eight or nine, she told me.

Michal Gez: And, you know, and this child came to her and said [00:07:00] to her, "Mom, even when it's hard, it's a part of life." And this is one of the principle I teach. At the age of eight, you know that life happens no matter what. And this is a situation where a kid at a very early age understand that this is a part of life, that things happen, that not always life will go the way I want it to go.

Michal Gez: This is one example. Another example that is interesting, and, this is an example I sh- I share a lot, is that there was a case of a child that learned this method, and he was with a younger child who was about, I don't know, six or something like that, and she was the start of the- star of the week in the kindergarten, and she had to share pictures of herself.

Michal Gez: And she told him, "You know what? I wanted to share more picture, but my dad told me that maybe I shouldn't share some picture because, they might be embarrassing, and [00:08:00] some, some other kid might laugh at me." And that child who learned that method told her, "You know what?" And he was, I think, nine. He said, "You know what?

Michal Gez: You should really have self-confidence. It really doesn't matter what other people think. Do you like those pictures?" And seeing that and hearing that's, you know, not only internalizing the wisdom, but actually as a child to be able to share that wisdom with other people, with other children, and even with adults, this is a very solid foundation for a soul, you know, to develop in this world, 

Dori Durbin: wow. I know adults who can't say that. 

Michal Gez: I know, and that's why I think at the end of the day, parents are also learning. That's why also in my work and also in my book, I cannot treat only the children. At the end of the day, we as adults sometimes never learn those principles. We are always learning, so it [00:09:00] has to go hand-in-hand, both the parent and the child itself.

Dori Durbin: So going back to the first example that you had about it, that's just part of life I'm curious, was this example a while ago? Like, was it long enough ago that you know they're still doing it now kind of thing? 

Michal Gez: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's something that I could see developing over time, and actually from the feedback I got at least, it's still, it

Michal Gez: You know, it doesn't mean that they don't have obstacle and they don't have their bad days, but the fact that they could actually articulate that is amazing. 

Dori Durbin: So it just became part of his being, part of his- Yeah. Yeah ... view of, uh, world view, life view perspective. 

Michal Gez: Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: So even taking just that one principle and applying it to kids who are struggling right now.

Dori Durbin: Let's say a kid has anxiety. Why is understanding that that's just how life is, how would that help them? 

Michal Gez: I think at the end of the day [00:10:00] is not being a parent that, you know, we want our parent not to face, you know, struggles. We want to, like you said in the beginning, save them the heartache and the pain.

Michal Gez: But we cannot sugarcoat everything. We need to be in a situation where we trust them enough, and we see them as capable enough- ... as, you know, that this is a part of life. Now, that doesn't mean that we're not going to treat it. If someone, is struggling, there are many other principles we use.

Michal Gez: For example, one of the main principles that, that I teach, and it really has a tremendous effect on children, is realizing that they always have two voices in their head. They always have the negative voice, and they always have the positive voice, and the voices in their head are not who they are. So the moment children becomes aware of it, I think how long it took me to be aware of that fact, [00:11:00] so many years to understand that the voices that I have is not necessarily me, and that at any given situation, under any circum- circumstances, I can decide which voice I give more importance to.

Michal Gez: Now, when children realize it, and it's easier for them when they're young because they, you know, they're like a sponge. They absorb everything. Until the age of seven, you know, you can teach them anything, and they will actually internally-- internalize it. And to do that with young children, you know, there's-- I don't know if you want to get into this now, but there's this, like, this nice game that I play, you know, that I teach, uh, also parents coach and, children.

Michal Gez: So- Go ahead 

Dori Durbin: and tell them. Yeah. 

Michal Gez: Okay. So I call it the tragic and magic knights game. So what we do, every time you see your child upset, sad because, you know, someone insulted him, someone made fun of him, someone took [00:12:00] his toy, he comes back, he's angry. So what you do is this, okay? You use the tragic and magic game.

Michal Gez: You use both hand. You can use, uh, I don't know, puppets or colorful socks or stickers to each and every hand. Each hand presen- basically represent one of the knight. So you have the magic knight, and you have the tragic knight. The magic knight is the positive voice. This is the one that actually say to him, "You know what?

Michal Gez: Keep on going. Nothing happened. Look at the bright side." And then there's the negative voice, the tragic knight, that tells him, "You know, it's really bad. We should be angry. We should be mad." And you don't mimic the child, but you look at your child, and you start reflecting to him his situation. So if he's mad, you're like, "Yeah, I'm so upset.

Michal Gez: I'm so mad. I can't believe this happened." And tragic knights, knight start actually eating or swallowing magic. And then at first they won't understand what you're doing, [00:13:00] but then little by little, they will be like, okay, they will start having those little smiles, and you're gonna, at a certain point, start raising the voice of the positive one that says, "Okay, but let's look at the brighter."

Michal Gez: Then you have this battle, and this small battle, this small game, actually create a situation where at the end, you s- you tell them, 'Who do you wanna win? Who, which knight?" And they would say, "I want magic knight to win." And when you do it long enough, they, there's a term, uh, in psychology that is called de-centering.

Michal Gez: De-centering is actually the ability to observe negative thoughts, okay? To observe them as temporary event or as passing event and not a reflection of the self or reality necessarily. And it was actually proven that children as young as four can actually regulate negative emotion if they [00:14:00] practice it.

Michal Gez: And also for adolescents that have greater de-centering related ability, they actually, uh, reported lower levels of anxiety symptom and also depression symptom. So this is one of the main, main key tools that I use that actually work and is so powerful 

Dori Durbin: So just to go back to that really quick. So they, they have to have an awareness of the negative comments and the positive comments.

Dori Durbin: Correct. You're teaching them a choice of choosing positive over negative by using de-centering, because you're taking it out of the center of their thoughts. 

Michal Gez: And, uh, it's, it- by saying to them, by making them the observer- Okay ... of their thoughts. By making them realize that those voices is not who they are, and that they can choose.

Michal Gez: [00:15:00] That they have the option to choose at any given moment. Yeah, exactly. 

Dori Durbin: And you said by age four? That is so young. 

Michal Gez: Yeah, yeah. Wow. And, and, and you know, when I read that research, I was also shocked because that's very young. And the fact that, having this, children can develop this early and, you know, the, the game itself is something that I developed to demonstrate that.

Michal Gez: But the fact that they can actually internalize that when they're very young is significant. And I honestly, I can understand that because trying to teach that adult is much harder, because the amount of limiting belief we have is much higher than a small child who is just developing. So it's a great opportunity to give them that tool.

Dori Durbin: So if you were to have a child and say, um, this child's coming before you and you're trying to [00:16:00] decide if they've been empowered, what would they have the ability to do that other children might not have? How are they uniquely empowered? 

Michal Gez: They would be uniquely empowered by feeling really comfortable in their own skin, by being able to set boundaries, and being really authentic.

Michal Gez: Okay? I think this is one of the most important trait that I see. Loving themself enough to be different, to choose something else, and not be dragged down by other- what other people think or say they should do. And once you have that ability, that's what makes, in my view, a child very empowered. 

Dori Durbin: So if we flash forward 20 years or so, and they're in the workforce now and they're empowered, [00:17:00] when they come against obstacles, how will that be different than a child that wasn't empowered?

Michal Gez: A child that wasn't empowered in my view might get it, but he will get it usually in man- and in many cases, in one of three scenarios. And usually that's what most people have. Either when he's reaching a point where he's fed up, okay, he cannot do it anymore. When something bad happens to other people, when something bad happens to him health-wise, he can't take it anymore.

Michal Gez: Or when he reach a significant milestone in his life. Okay? He's, you know, he's 30, he's 40, so he's thinking about how much time has passed by. How much time do I have left? In those moments, we usually start, thinking or about what we should do next and making that change. It's not like he's not gonna make that change.

Michal Gez: He will, but it will take him much [00:18:00] longer because he didn't have the solid foundation from the very, very start. And, and honestly, I think that's what most people do. They reach those conclusion, but they reach those conclusion further on as they go, and usually after, breakdowns or, some bad things happen to- happening to them.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah. I ask that because I think one of the things that I know I was guilty of as a parent, and I know lots of people around me are guilty of um, is when we see our kids struggling, we really wanna jump in and save them. We wanna help them, we wanna, you know, make things easy, make it more comfortable.

Dori Durbin: But from the sounds of it, it's gonna start early, early on. But let's say we haven't done that. Why is it important for our kids still to experience some of those frustrations and struggles? 

Michal Gez: It's not a m- you know, it's not a matter that it's important. I see it as a fact of life. You will [00:19:00] experience this period no matter what you do, no matter how good the foundation is.

Michal Gez: This is a part of life. Of course, that by going through obstacles and hard time, you're building resilience. You're building, uh... And I can tell you, I myself, you know, was going through a lot of bullying as a child, and I went through really hard time, from the social perspective, and it built me, and of course it made me stronger.

Michal Gez: But seeing the work I do now with children and being able to save them that heartache at a young age makes a huge difference. And just by being aware, I think that the awareness is key and is important. They will get it, but you would like your kids to get it early and not late. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I think that's so true.

Dori Durbin: And, and there's a lot that we can't control as parents that they're exposed to environmentally or [00:20:00] now social media-wise, et cetera, et cetera. Like, there's a lot of out of our control that they're gonna be exposed to, whereas, like, if you can invest in them early and help them to develop these skills that you're talking about, it would make a huge difference when they do come up against some of these things.

Michal Gez: Exactly. Exactly. I totally agree. I think that the, this is one of the most important things that we as parent can do. And even if we're not gonna fix everything, and you know, like you're saying, we're not gonna be able to jump every time something happen and fix everything, and, you know, your child will experience heartache and so on.

Michal Gez: But once he understand that, A, this is a part of life, and B, that he has the tools to be able to cope with those situation, it will be much different for him. 

Dori Durbin: And so if I'm a parent who's listening right now and they're like, "Huh, this is really interesting. Like, this is something that I'd like to dive into," I'm gonna buy her book.

Dori Durbin: I'm gonna get Michal's book [00:21:00] and The Empowered Child. I'm gonna take a look at it, and how do I use this to the fullest potential? What should I do as a parent with it? 

Michal Gez: So one of the thing that I do in the book is that, A, I- the first part of each principle is dedicated for the parent, because I can come to my child and say, you know, one of the principles is, uh, you know, dreaming big and making sure that you allow your child to dream big, even if you think he might not be able to do it deep down.

Michal Gez: Okay? But if you're gonna go and tell your child, "You can do it, you can dream big," but your child is looking at you and you're not implementing that in your life, then that's an is- that's a problem. And, our children are not only learning from what we are instructing. And there's this, uh, famous psychology, [00:22:00] psychologist, Albert Bandura, that talks about the, uh, Bobo dolls experience, experiment.

Michal Gez: Do you know that 

Dori Durbin: experiment? No. Tell me. Tell us about it. 

Michal Gez: It's a very interesting experiment. It was done in 1961 in Canada, I believe, and in that experience they took, you know, adults and they put them in a, in, in a room in those huge Bobo doll, one that

Michal Gez: if you punch, they come back. Oh. And they put kids next to them, and they had to punch the doll and, you know, and they used very aggressive language toward the doll, and the kids were looking at this. Now, at, at this time in the '60s, you know, many, many people thought that children learn by instruction, by teaching.

Michal Gez: And, after that, they put the kids in the same room with the Bobo doll, and of course what did the kids do? They imitate. They did the modeling, the, the- you know, they looked at the, what the adults did do, and they did the exact same thing. 

Dori Durbin: Mm-hmm. 

Michal Gez: And at the end of the day, this is exactly what I'm talking about, and that's why it's important for me that in each and every principle of the method, first- [00:23:00] We as parents need to implement it ourself.

Michal Gez: We cannot go to a child and say, 'You can do it. You can do it,' and we come back at, from work, and we hate our job, and we are bitter, and we are resentful because our child is also imitating us, is also learning from our actions. So if I look at the method, this is the first part. The second part is actually after I talk about why is the, this principle is important, what is the reason behind it, the research and so on.

Michal Gez: I talk about how do you implement that with your own children? What are the practical, like the, you know, tragic and magic, uh, night game or some other method that I use so they can actually implement those method in everyday life, and they can pick and choose, and the, the thing that is nice about it is that the method includes 30 principles.

Michal Gez: So there's a really big amount of principles you can choose to implement with your child, and [00:24:00] it's very, as I said before, it's not only fixing the problem. You're building a foundation from the very, very start. 

Dori Durbin: So here's, here's a funny story from when my kids were little. My kids both wanted to be Olympians.

Dori Durbin: Mm-hmm. And we always told them, "You can be an Olympian. You can do anything you want to do," right? And both my husband and I both run, and I swim and lift. And so like, we've tried to model.

Dori Durbin: But as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, "Well, how many times did we come home and, and said, 'Oh, I don't know if I can even do that. ...'" You know, like, we put the doubts out there that maybe weren't even in their heads until we said them, right? Yeah. Is that kind of the same type of example?

Michal Gez: Yeah. And also one of the things that I'm talking about, and also one of the principles, is that also remembering when we have those big dreams, that-- And I really like the saying by Les Brown when he's saying, "Shoot for the moon. Even if you fail, you're gonna land amongst stars." So even if your child didn't reach the Olympic, she reach, I'm sure, and [00:25:00] I, I'm not familiar with your children, but I'm sure she reached something that she would have never imagined she would have reached if she wouldn't have pursued this mindset.

Michal Gez: And this is something that is also important. At the end of the day, yeah, we might not reach all of our goals, and that's okay. We're not, uh, saying to our kids, you know, you're gonna get-- This is also a part of life. That's why I like focusing truth of life because sometimes you're not gonna get it, and it's okay.

Michal Gez: But the fact that your mindset is big enough to think that you can actually make it and instilling your child that belief, it's amazing. And I'll give you the, the example, one of the example that I have, and it's also in the book. But, you know, there was this case when I entered the room and I heard a conversation between a mother and a child.

Michal Gez: And, you know, someone entered the room. The mother was sitting with her child, and he was, like, joking and [00:26:00] asking him, "What do you wanna be when you grow up?" And he immediately said in one second, "I wanna be the prime minister." And the woman started, her, his mom started laughing and saying- Yeah

Michal Gez: "Okay. Great. But, uh, don't get your hopes too high, and don't..." And it's, in a way it's normal, but she was like ... And then she continued saying, uh, you know, "Never mind him. You know what? The kids," or something like that, like really underestimating him. And I'm sure she did the best she could, and I'm sure she didn't want him to have maybe, disappointment or not reach his goal.

Michal Gez: But I look at this child- And I, I look at the gaze in his eye and the change in one second from being totally confident and happy and, you know, having that in his mind, to feeling like, the one person that is the closest to him is telling him that it's not possible, or shifting. [00:27:00] Now, this boy might not have been the prime minister, but it could have been something e- else, and he could have landed among, the stars.

Michal Gez: And this is exactly, you know, what I'm talking about. You might not reach your goal, but as a parent, and, you know, we're gonna fail a lot, but let's try to give our kids the sense that they can actually do it even if they're not gonna make the exact goal that they want.

Dori Durbin: So maybe a better response for her would be to giggle and say, "That is amazing."

Dori Durbin: Just leave it- Yeah ... leave it there. 

Michal Gez: Exactly. Exactly, yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. So what if that parent is listening right now and thinks, "Oh, great. I just screwed my kid up for life. They'll never accomplish anything"? What can they do if they've already marred what their kids believe they can accomplish? 

Michal Gez: I believe that they should acknowledge that no matter what happens, they will do it.

Michal Gez: This is also a part of life. No matter how enlightened you are, no [00:28:00] matter how much practice you get, at the end of the day, as parents, you're gonna make a lot of mistakes. But as long as you have the willingness to learn and to, try to at least, become a better parent, that's something that, you know, you cannot underestimate.

Michal Gez: And, you know, if you're here, if you're human, you're learning, and this is a, this is als- this is a part of life. So I think that, you know, you, parents shouldn't be ch- too harsh on themself, and, um, they will make mistakes. But as long as they are willing to, you know, listening to your podcast, reading books, getting better, that's a great gift that they can give their children.

Dori Durbin: That 1% better every day is 30% better in a month, right? The concept. Yes, yeah. 

Michal Gez: Exactly. 

Dori Durbin: So one thing that was really interesting to me about what you do and what you said in the [00:29:00] beginning was that you're not just limiting these principles just to parenting. You're also bringing the ideas into workplaces, organizations, and bigger conversations.

Dori Durbin: So I'm curious, why do you feel that this empowerment conversation needs to be outside of the home as well? 

Michal Gez: Cause I think it goes uh, as I said before, it goes hand in hand.

Michal Gez: I think that you cannot really implement those lessons if you're not practicing it yourself. I think that if I look at cooperation and organization, and many, parents that are dealing with, high stress at work, and I experienced that, for many, many years, so I know what it's like to, try to balance between work life and also, raising children.

Michal Gez: That's why I think that both aspects should be dealt. And that's why I think that, you should implement every [00:30:00] principle here. You can implement it first for yourself, and once you do, you can also do it for your kids. So for me, talking in organization, talking in cooperation, the purpose is to, you know, make sure the parents also have a clear state of mind, that the parents also can dismantle them- their limiting belief and live a better life 

Dori Durbin: Yeah.

Dori Durbin: Yeah, I really appreciate the fact that you're pointing that out, because I think sometimes we think we can do it simultaneously. You know, we'll, we'll, I'll teach them this while I work on it, and it sounds like it would almost be better to have the opportunity at least improve some of your beliefs before you start to try to help your kids, right?

Michal Gez: Exactly. Exactly. Totally agree. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Okay. Okay. Before I ask you the very last question, Michal, I want to point out that there are probably some listeners who are saying to themselves, "Okay, great, Dorie, you've [00:31:00] told us all this stuff, but where can I get her book, and how can I talk to her?" So will you share that with us?

Michal Gez: Yes, so sure. So if this conversation resonated with you, you can visit my website, eh, michalgez, M-I-C-H-A-L-G-E-Z.com, and there you can of course book a lecture or a one-on-one coaching session and so on, and of course find more information about my book. 

Dori Durbin: Awesome. Awesome. And they can possibly ask you questions there, too, I'm guessing?

Michal Gez: Of course. I also, uh, there's also my phone number, so feel free to text me. You know, I'll be happy to answer any question you have. 

Dori Durbin: So we always like to end the podcast with an action step for parents, because I know they get all excited about these principles. so Michal, what is one simple step that parents can take this week to help their children become a little more emotionally empowered, resilient, or confident?

Michal Gez: So one of the principles that I talk about is [00:32:00] identifying or, and building your power group, meaning building at an early, early age the group that will actually walk with you hand-in-hand and empower you as person, as a child. And the term that I use is SILIs friend. Say it like it is friend. And it, it is basically about helping children identifying friendship that would actually help them, and making them basically understand that a really good friends has three main condition, and that they should be aware of it.

Michal Gez: First, a good friend will stand by your side when it's hard. Many people will do that also when you're grown up, but not always for the right reason. Some are just, happy that you're in y- you're in that situation or, you know, are feeling very happy to help you. The second thing is, you know, they will be there for you- [00:33:00] When you succeed.

Michal Gez: And this is a much harder condition because, in many cases people are there for us when we struggle, but what happen when you succeed, when you get that diploma, when you get, the new relationship and so on. It's important to teach that children as well. And the third condition that I would like children to be aware of from an early age is that a good friend will tell you things as they are, even if you don't wanna hear.

Michal Gez: E- even if you don't wanna hear it, even if it's something ... But they will tell you and will, things that are as they are, and they will be very honest with you. So those three conditions are very important. Making a child be aware of them, even, as a first stage, just as a conversation between you and your child, can make a huge different in the friendship that they choose and in the power group that they build around [00:34:00] them.

Dori Durbin: Wow, and if that started early on in life, that would be amazing. Those- Yeah ... relationships could be so strong. 

Michal Gez: Yeah. Exactly. I, for me, took 28 years to understand who is a good friend. So knowing that at five, six, 10, even, you know, 12, is amazing. It saves a lot of things, you know, down the road. 

Dori Durbin: Yes. Oh, this is great. Thank you so much for giving us an action item- Yeah ... that we can implement right away. I appreciate you so much, Michal. 

Michal Gez: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you so much for all of your wonderful work. It's really amazing. 

Dori Durbin: Aw. Thank you, Michal. So if this episode encouraged you today, helped your understanding, uh, maybe even helped you understand your child or yourself a little bit more, be sure to share this episode with someone else who could really use it too.

Dori Durbin: And remember, parenting does not have to be perfect to be good. It's just one small step at a time until we can look back and say, "Now [00:35:00] that, that was good parenting." We'll see you next time