Dori Durbin: [00:00:00] Welcome to, that's Good Parenting, a podcast that searches for simple steps to reduce parenting stress. I'm your host, Dorie Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, ghost writer, and podcaster parents. Have you ever had one of those days where the stress builds up and suddenly you're in the kitchen eating an entire sleeve of Girl Scout cookies?

Dori Durbin: Then another one. And you're still kind of wondering how that just happened. Well, parenting pressure builds. It can show up in everyday habits we just don't think about. And as someone who helps experts shift big adult ideas into children's books, I'm always curious about how emotions show up inside everyday family life and how parents and kids can learn to cope.

Dori Durbin: So today we're talking about what's really happening underneath those coping behaviors and how parents. Can respond with more understanding instead of more pressure. Joining us today is Zoe Klein, a registered social worker who works in perinatal care, parenting, coaching, and women's health. Her focus is on helping parents understand [00:01:00] the emotional side of parenting and how stress shapes the way that their family copes.

Dori Durbin: Zoe, for those listeners meeting you for the first time, can you share a little bit about who you are, who you support, and why people typically come to you? 

Zoe Klein: So in my personal practice, uh, Zoe, KMSW Incorporated, I'm working with a few different buckets of people.

Zoe Klein: Um, so I'm working with women trying to get pregnant. I'm working with women, sort of just going through motherhood and life. And then I'm also working with parents who might be new parents and they need to work on boundaries and kind family dynamics as well as people raising toddlers and young children who might find that there's certain situations that are difficult for them or they're just trying to establish.

Zoe Klein: Family patterns. I think what's interesting as well about millennials is we're very big on cycle breaking. We wanna have a much more relational stance with our kids. We wanna understand more about who they are as people as opposed to just control their behavior. And I think there's a lot of confusion with respect to what does positive [00:02:00] attachment look like?

Zoe Klein: How do I create. End of rules in relationship and what does that actually look like on a daily basis? And my job is to take the stress outta that, make that simple and kind of recapitulate parenting in a relationship, right? We're in a relationship with a person and in relationships there's boundaries, there's mutual respect, there's an appreciation of dignity and sure, as a parent, am I the authority?

Zoe Klein: Yes. But it's also about teaching people how we can exercise this in a way that's dignified and supportive. And for both parties actually. Mm-hmm. 

Dori Durbin: And one thing that I thought about with this particular topic is. We sometimes don't even know how we're gonna respond. We just respond because we're overwhelmed and we fall on some habits that kind of helped before, but maybe they don't help at the time.

Dori Durbin: So like the emotional eating is just one piece I think about like it's so easy to pick up your phone and disconnect or to be grumpy and irritable and mentally [00:03:00] drained. So, with your work with families, what are some early signs that parents might notice? Their emotional capacity is just running out.

Zoe Klein: So I think often we see this, we do see this in food. So I think, you know, I always tell people to look at, you know, the intention here because people will come to me and say, I have cupcakes at Friday, night at 10. If this a problem. But you know, then I, then I hear, okay, you're having them with your husband or your partner, or you're happy, you're watching a show.

Zoe Klein: You're connecting. That sounds lovely. But are we eating an ice cream and a carton of shame, like a carton of ice cream and shame that we need to talk about? Not from the perspective of judgment, but there's something else going on there. Or maybe that's a way that you're kind of exercising your frustration because you don't feel you can take it out on your child.

Zoe Klein: You're nutritionally depleted during the day. There's something that we can, we can look at that. The other thing that I think is really important, and I noticed this too, even just being a parent, my kids are now five and three, but I can remember those early days of being a parent where at one o'clock in the morning everything seems like a big, [00:04:00] huge deal.

Zoe Klein: And there were times where my husband and I laugh now about the things that we made into five alarm emergencies. That were not five alarm emergencies because we were so used to the precision and control with our careers that we had no ability to fi filter out things and say, is this actually a problem?

Zoe Klein: Do we need to be this upset about this? Okay, we didn't bring the sippy cup. Okay, next and we've become a lot more adept at that. And really my job as a therapist is helping clients to say, is this really about the SIP cup? So to kind of answer your question, it's usually little things like that in the background.

Dori Durbin: The sippy cup is kind of a big deal actually. We had a stuffed animal that got lost and it was like, oh, super night. Yeah, it was, it was horrible. Yeah. Everybody was stressed out over this stuffed animal. 

Zoe Klein: For sure. A hundred percent. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: And I think, I think what's interesting too is when you were talking about the cupcake situation versus like with your spouse out in the open, [00:05:00] enjoying time together.

Dori Durbin: I always hear about people like sneaking away to the closet and that's when the Girl Scout cookies come out like they have a stash. 

Zoe Klein: Yeah, 

Dori Durbin: yeah. They know it's a stress stash, but it's okay because nobody sees it. But there's still that guilt. The guilt of like. Knowing that you fell upon that and then you start kind of body shaming yourself, right?

Dori Durbin: Do you have that happen where a lot of your clients come to you frustrated with how they're looking, but it's a stress reaction to something completely different?

Zoe Klein: Not only do my clients come with that, but it, it formed the basis of my early motherhood and it's kind of why I'm here.

Zoe Klein: And there was also a raging thyroid disorder in the background that was not properly treated, but I, I think, you know, people are like, oh my God, I'm a pig. Why am I like this? Now I feel gross, or this is not the way I want my kids or my daughter to think about food. Why am I doing this? But I think what we also have to look at is, especially in those early days, time alone is rare and mothers are not necessarily comfortable right away leaving their baby with someone else.

Zoe Klein: And we sort of make that into a problem, which is a [00:06:00] whole other discussion. But I think what that creates is women feeling like this is the only thing I can do. It's not that guys don't do this or I don't hear this from dads, but I think there's a lot more of that and especially women of this day who know when you have kids, everything you do is a comment.

Zoe Klein: What you eat is commented on. What you, where you go is commented on whether you work or how you work or what you do is so commented on that normal behaviors end up being done in secrecy. And you know, I talk to women all the time about, but this is not your fault. But this is leading to you feeling like you are abusing yourself and this thing, and we need to help you be able to.

Zoe Klein: Have more of an ability to act in the open. And maybe that means, you know, you guys need to be setting some boundaries with my help with people kind of in your life that may be commenting on food and the body in a way that's not working for you. Or maybe that has nothing to do with [00:07:00] it. But we can find you 10 minutes here, 15 minutes here of self-care so you're not feeling like this is your only option because this is not a moral failing at all.

Zoe Klein: This is you being a product of a system. 

Dori Durbin: So as you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I know these feelings. I remember these feelings. I mean, my kids are in their twenties and I still remember those feelings. But what is interesting to me is I didn't think anybody else felt like that.

Dori Durbin: And I think, oh 

Zoe Klein: yeah, I thought it was crazy. I thought it was absolutely crazy. I. 

Dori Durbin: And you think that's why we just kind of stew with it ourselves and don't reach out for help? Is that because we think we are alone or is that like a, like you were starting to talk about, having that sense of kind of failing, failing.

Dori Durbin: Is it more that, what, what is it that keeps people from coming to you and getting help? 

Zoe Klein: I think we're just, you know, my husband has a really good line about this, and he said this a lot kind of after the first year of parenting, of feeling like he had been lied to. By society and that the generation before him presented parenting is [00:08:00] this thing that mom just did, that dad kind of supported in the background, that this was all easy.

Zoe Klein: That if there was something wrong with your relationship, that was a you problem. And I think in the first year of parenting we had together, we realized. How much of this experience is actually quite ubiquitous, but everyone's too ashamed to talk about it. And then when I shifted my practice focus, you would hear this and.

Zoe Klein: In sessions of, oh, it's not just me. No. There's whole sex of therapists that exist to deal with these issues. And I can remember, to be honest with you, like even with what was it, 2021. So I would've had five years of clinical experience under my belt at that point, but I was sort of in a different area of focus at the time.

Zoe Klein: Feeling so ashamed that we weren't deeply in love and we were just exhausted and, you know, feeling ashamed that I wasn't able to breastfeed and that there was something wrong with me. That you know, we didn't want to [00:09:00] do things that other people seemingly wanted to do, and we were taking a much more attachment focused route.

Zoe Klein: And I remember thinking like there was something wrong with me until I saw on Instagram. How many therapists, A focus on this and B, are able to sit down with couples, which is now really the basis of what I do, and say what works for you and your family? Not some archetype of what should work. And yes, of course we want evidence-based practice and we wanna be teaching people how to connect and support, but what that looks like is gonna be very different for parents, for children.

Zoe Klein: And once we were both able to see this and say. We actually don't have to function like some Instagram couple. We could be ourselves here. Everything was just so much better. 

Dori Durbin: It's so funny that you say that. So my kids were little, Instagram wasn't around, but we had the No for better. Yeah, probably For sure.

Dori Durbin: We had the [00:10:00] pressures of the neighbors. We had older neighbors who lived next to us and they would come over and say, well that's not how we did it and that's not how blah, blah, blah. And I was, yeah. Yeah. I was like so stressful. I was like, don't come over here. I wanna pull all my blinds and hide. You know?

Dori Durbin: I 

Zoe Klein: used to get so angry. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Yes. And it's like we're trying to do our best here. We're trying to be the best parents we possibly can be. We're trying to be like sane and actually sleep and all the other things that you're trying to balance. It's no wonder the Girl Scout cookies come into play, but what was interesting, what you said also was about your husband, because I think we focus on, being a mom is tougher than being a dad. I think it is tough if, especially if you're home, it's tougher for sure. But when it comes to dads, we tend to kind of leave dads out. And my husband was stressed and I was so busy being stressed, I barely noticed until later.

Dori Durbin: And so the fact that your husband was telling you that I think is really important and we have to keep that in mind too. 

Zoe Klein: Well, one of the things we really noticed is the gaps [00:11:00] in care for men. So we were expecting me to get postpartum depression just based on certain health factors in the first baby, but it was actually him.

Zoe Klein: And one of the things that we both feel was like. We both talk about some we failures we had in that part is, you know, he talks about where he feels he went wrong in that first six months in particular. But I didn't understand it. I just kind of thought he was throwing a tantrum and deflecting focus and I was not supportive to somebody who.

Zoe Klein: Needed it, who witnessed a traumatic birth and me screaming, Hey Dave, tell the doctor to stop. Like the fact that he had to sit there and watch that, right? But he didn't know how to ask for that help without me feeling blamed. And he didn't know what that looked like until, there came a point where we're able to access that.

Zoe Klein: And, I think what's interesting about that is. When we're not [00:12:00] supporting dads, they're stuck in these things. And as much as I feel it's embarrassing that, you know, with that, with, with a level of clinical experience, I still didn't detect it. I hear these stories again and again and again, that, you know, and it, it suggests to me that dad may not just be sulking, dad may need real support, but the clinical presentation of these symptoms is not gonna look like crying.

Zoe Klein: It's gonna look like something else. And I think what he was displaying at the time I thought was almost like a stupid toddler tantrum, but it was actually a real clinical need for targeted support that was missed by the system. And. I wish that had been different for him. And we've talked about the fact that, you know, 30 years, if we see that in our son, we'd hope to be able to help him in a way that worked for him.

Zoe Klein: Kind of in, in that sense. And I think also one of the things that my husband talked about as well is, feeling that the [00:13:00] information you receive is kind of. Bogus. Like breast is best. And we talked about from our first baby, like, okay, you're gonna try to breastfeed.

Zoe Klein: It's ultimately gonna be your choice if you wanna call it, but we should figure out how to do this. And then when he saw this in action and how much it wasn't working for all of the reasons it wasn't working which didn't wanna necessarily end the two, but it was just very clearly not working. He was horrified and he was horrified in the sense of, okay, did I push you into this?

Zoe Klein: I should have known this. And then by the time we got to our second baby and there was an option to maybe take medication to help this process along, he looked at me and said, unless you really want to, I actually really don't want you to. This doesn't seem fair, and and that's not to say that if somebody produces milk easily and wants to, and that's right for them, that they shouldn't.

Zoe Klein: But kind of what he felt was we push women to do this at all costs, and if we do this, this is what this can look like and this is not [00:14:00] reasonable. So I think there's a whole kind of sect of care where he felt poorly educated, not picked up by the system, and he's a happy dad now. He's fabulous. But those first six months, I would say the year, but particularly the first six months were not kind to him.

Zoe Klein: And he would tell you that himself. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. That's really fascinating. I, and I don't think he's alone. I think that there are no plenty of No, it's 

Zoe Klein: a lot of our friends too. Yeah, 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I remember, and my husband would be embarrassed, I said this, but I remember when, uh, our first was born, my husband being so proud, at one point of saying, I looked the placenta in the eye.

Dori Durbin: But then when it came to actually having my child, um, we had a little bit of a traumatic birth as well. And he was so scared and I didn't really know that until after, I think our son was probably three or four months old before we even talked about it, because it was such a whirl terrify after that, 

Zoe Klein: you know?

Zoe Klein: Yeah, 

Dori Durbin: yeah, well, 

Zoe Klein: I think we're having to stand by and watch this, and as the [00:15:00] woman in labor, you're not able to access their pain. You probably shouldn't at that point, but like I New Years, like later, I've been saying to him like, I'm really glad that I'm not a man because I don't know how I would be able to watch that.

Zoe Klein: And like we're, and we don't really think about that. We just say the man has to be the protector. Okay. But like, what if he's terrified? Right. Does that make him a pansy? No. We need to be able to support him too. 

Dori Durbin: Right. That's so true. 

Zoe Klein: Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: That's so true. Such a different perspective than, yeah, and I don't, I don't think a woman in labor can access anything beyond what's going on in that moment 

Zoe Klein: either.

Zoe Klein: She shouldn't for that matter. And, and, and I think most reasonable men would agree with that, but I think if we could tell guys like, Hey, this is what this can look like, to be honest, like, let's, let's throw the cards on the table full spectrum of what this can look like. This is what you might see and if you need to access [00:16:00] trauma care.

Zoe Klein: Before and after. There is nothing wrong with you. For doing that. And that is a protective, medically responsible decision. And I, I still think there's a lot of 30 something year old men who have no problem with their wife going to therapy, but they're like, I'm not doing that. Like, 

Dori Durbin: she can go, I don't need to.

Dori Durbin: Yes. 

Zoe Klein: Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Well it's interesting when I posted about this particular podcast and asked a couple questions, one of the questions that came up was emotional eating for men, and the men were voting on it. Yeah. And I thought about it and, and these were men who don't have babies. They have kids who are in middle and high school and older.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. And I thought that's even a piece of it that we don't talk about is the emotional. Tool of having gone through all this, but then later also letting these same babies that brought the trauma and brought the joy go off to college or go off to, you know, their lives.

Zoe Klein: So, it's funny because I've actually had a [00:17:00] few men that I saw at the beginning of my career when I had a very different focus come back and their kids are now.

Zoe Klein: Three to 10, let's say. Mm-hmm. Um, which is a range, but it's enough of a range where they're out of the little baby stage in the same way and they're now finding that they're driving people to stalk and they're doing all these things and, you know, him and his wife or partner, they're, you know, kind of spitting plates, trying to get all this done and.

Zoe Klein: There is emotional eating because they're watching themselves age into their early forties and they're starting to look different. Or you know, in their day, mom just did all of that and now they're a part of that and there's no way there, there's no mentor showing them how to balance both. They're figuring it out along the way.

Zoe Klein: I think like, you know, I had a guy say this in my practice, and I think there's some real use to this that he thinks he's gonna be a lot more helpful to his son in these areas in 30 years because. In his day, mom just did all of that. Dad went to work and now he, and and he's like, [00:18:00] rightfully so.

Zoe Klein: Of course I should be, but I, I'm here doing this alongside with her where one person has to be in from the GTA. So let's say, you know, Ajax and the other person has to be in Oakville and for soccer, and how do we do this? And also I have a meeting at four 30 and. So there is a lot of, you know, I went through the drive through and I, I had a client recently and we were working on, um, said if he had the binging was, um, monster drinks. 

Dori Durbin: Oh yeah. 

Zoe Klein: I dunno if you guys have those, but mm-hmm. We do fuzzy and fuzzy peaches and it kind of makes sense because it's very like quick palatable type food. Right. And we looked at what that was doing for him and how we could kind of replace that with other soothing actions and no, now he's like, yeah, no, I look at the fuzzy peaches and I'm, I'm good thanks.

Zoe Klein: But I think there is a lot of that, 'cause his kids are 8-year-old twins and a 10-year-old girl. He's driving everybody in the club to dance and this [00:19:00] and friends, and also works from home. And he is a smart guy. He's exhausted. 

Dori Durbin: Is there value in getting ahold of this early on and then life gets a little easier later? 

Zoe Klein: Without like giving too much information. He saw me for different things when his kids were babies.

Zoe Klein: And I think. For some people they may be more susceptible to these types of behaviors and I would say that was probably true in this case.

Zoe Klein: But I think definitely when you go through having children, getting support nutritionally, psychologically, and is important for a lot of reasons. And I think to be honest with you. If I had to say to somebody to do three things, it would be go at a dietician. Not even necessarily if you want to or need to lose weight, but just how do we make sure I get my nutrients in as a busy parent?

Zoe Klein: And if you wanna lose weight, great, but it doesn't have to be about that. Get a therapist you trust and [00:20:00] respect and the amount of times that you use this person can be different depending on where you are in the year. Christmas is big for us. Nobody wants to deal with us. Come July, August, not a surprise.

Zoe Klein: And to be honest with you, get the hell off Instagram because there's just so much noise these days about how you should parent or. What your marriage should look like and completely confusing ideas as a woman of, you should do this for your husband, but no you shouldn't. And stand on one foot. And it's, I think women between 30 and 40 in particular are exhausted.

Zoe Klein: Exhausted with this stuff. And I say this with a business, Instagram and all those things. But like if I was not on for business, no bye. 

Dori Durbin: Just so much comparison, so much trying to live up to what other people are doing. Is that what you're seeing? 

Zoe Klein: Yeah. Yeah. And just a lot of like conflicting stuff [00:21:00] and you know, I think like when we look at parenting and there's a lot of advice online of don't say this, don't say this, do this, do this.

Zoe Klein: And a lot of what I talk to parents about, is that attachment. And connection starts with a dignity and respect 100%. But what that's going to look like is going to be very different. Like with my older son who's a bit more sensitive, I might ask more open-ended questions, whereas my younger daughter actually responds better to Amelia, get off the couch because she's very like, she functions that way.

Zoe Klein: She understands what's being asked, whereas. My son might come back and say, but mom, I was looking for this. And he feels cut off in that situation. So I think I, so, so I think a lot of parents would hear that second example and say, you're doing old world [00:22:00] boomer type stuff, but no, as long as you're not like, because that's what she's responding to.

Zoe Klein: She understands what I mean by that. And she'd be more confused by kind of more flowery language. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah. You're just meeting her where she responds. 

Zoe Klein: We meeting her where she responds. Right. And, and you know, and if, and she gets lots of hugs and love as any little person should. Right. That's, you know, they need that like water.

Zoe Klein: But I give that example because if I spoke to her in that other way, that might be seen as quote unquote more nurturing, she would just be more confused. 

Dori Durbin: That makes a lot of sense. Well, speaking of that one of the things I do with my job is I take big ideas and make them into kids' books.

Dori Durbin: Right. I love that. I love that. So I'm curious if parents want their kids to understand feelings and they're not always sure how to talk about feelings. From your perspective, what is the emotional skill you wish parents would give their kids to help early in life? And that might be [00:23:00] from ground up. 

Zoe Klein: So I would just say narration, like.

Zoe Klein: I'll do a lot of talking to the kids like, okay, this is taking a while. I'm feeling annoyed. Do you guys like, this is what annoyed means? And we we talk a lot about it. There's, there's people who will do like blue zone, red zone, but I think. There's sort of this misconception as a mom, especially now in the gentle parenting era, that you need to be calm all the time.

Zoe Klein: And what you shouldn't be doing is taking your emotions out on your children or scaring them or throwing tantrums. A hundred percent. But kids need to understand, okay, or even just saying to them, guys, I am upset. There's stuff all over the floor. There was no reason for this to happen. What are we gonna do about this?

Zoe Klein: And. Showing them what conflict resolution looks like when we're upset. What does it look like if I'm not happy with somebody that I actually care about? So in terms of expressing an standing com [00:24:00] emotions, I think it's leading by example. And I see that as powerful because actually very recently, my son sat me down using very similar language to tell me why he was upset with me.

Zoe Klein: 'cause he felt rushed on a morning and I didn't understand what shirt he wanted to wear and I need to listen. But to be honest, I was not listening that morning. I just wanted clothes on and him out the door and he was modeling those things by saying, mom, I'm frustrated. Here's why. Next time I want to choose my stuff ahead with you.

Zoe Klein: Great. Okay. You're not asking anything ridiculous. I think that's kind of my best way. I think a lot of people have these systems, but I think if you're just processing in real time, I think that's important. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. That's great. As far as people finding you and working with you, finding more about you, where can they go to do all that?

Zoe Klein: Yeah, so find me on Instagram at Women's Health Therapy. And then also zeto, E-M-S-W-R [00:25:00] rsw.com. Um, you'll see an Instagram that's very women's focused, but there's also quite a parenting piece there. So send me an inquiry and I'd be more than happy to chat with you because we do offer parent coaching as well.

Zoe Klein: That's, that's really great. 

Dori Durbin: Awesome. So if there's one thing a parent could do as soon as they get done listening to this podcast to make their relationship with their own food and stress better, what would you say that would be? 

Zoe Klein: What I would say is stock your car with some good snacks, and if you feel the urge to rip through something in your closet, set a 10 minute timer and do something with your hands.

Zoe Klein: Shower, do the dishwasher and see if that's something you really want. Because sometimes we just have a feeling we're just so frustrated. Everyone's screaming. That is objectively annoying, right? We forget that when we're taking care of people. That is objectively annoying. And it's okay to feel that. And that doesn't mean that you're not attached or you don't care, but let's help you deal with that feeling in a way that's not [00:26:00] self-destructive.

Dori Durbin: I've never heard that before, Zoe. That's great. Thank you so much for being here today and for doing the work that you do to support families because I think there's so many out there who really need to know that this is normal and it's okay to need help to get through this.

Zoe Klein: Thank you for having me. 

Dori Durbin: Absolutely.

Dori Durbin: And for our listeners, remember that parenting is emotional work and none of us do it perfectly. These conversations are simply meant to remind you that you're not alone and to give one small step that you can try today, so that the end of the day you can say now that that was good parenting.

Dori Durbin: See you soon.