Dori Durbin: Welcome to. That's Good Parenting. I'm your host, Dorie Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, and podcaster, and today I'm joined with Dr. Lumpy. She's a pediatrician and a author of a book that she's going to introduce because I'm gonna ask Dr. Lump to talk all about herself right now. Welcome Dr.

Lo. Thank you for having me. Yes. Thank you for being here. So what can you tell us about who you are and what you do? 

Lum Frundi, MD: I am Dr. Londi. I am a pediatrician and author of my very first children's book, the Worry Garden, and I'm so excited to share today all about it. 

Dori Durbin: We are so glad to have you. And really, I think it's really interesting that what you specialize in is one of parents' most stressful parts of their day, and that's some picky eaters, and food anxiety.

So one of the questions I have for you is from your perspective as a pediatrician, what do you wish [00:01:00] more parents understood about food anxiety in general? 

Lum Frundi, MD: Food, mealtime. I talk a lot about picky eating and picky eating. And food anxiety is not necessarily because the children do not want to eat what's in front of them.

A lot of times it may be something new that they're not aware of, of they've not seen before. And anything new as we all know, can look scary if you don't know what it is. And. On other times, there's some kids where either they had gagged or eaten something new that made them feel funny, or sometimes they eat something and it made their tongue itchy, or just that weird feeling in their mouth that they don't have the name for it.

Still coming back to, it's not familiar, it felt funny the first time. Now, everything that is new and unfamiliar. Looks scary, so it may not just because of that plate in front of them. It may just be that awareness that if tagged in the back of their mind, it's not, I don't know what this is, and whatever we don't know [00:02:00] is scary, so I avoid it.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of foods as an adult, that I look at and I think, I'm not gonna eat that. And if you're really afraid of textures or certain colors, it really puts you at a loss to want to try it. So is that part of your motivation for writing your book? I'm curious.

Lum Frundi, MD: It's because every day I talk to parents.

I wanna say at least every other PA parent I talk to, or if I have any questions or when we talk about their eating habits and stuff, the biggest thing is either, especially with those kids who are in that toddler phase. They're very picky. They won't eat anything and it's just hard to get them to eat the right stuff.

All they want to eat is snacks all the time and they will not eat either fruits or vegetables. So. 

Dori Durbin: I remember my kids growing up, they wanted to eat chicken nuggets and it was chicken nuggets and Nutella, and if those could give you a full balanced diet, we'd all, I don't 

Lum Frundi, MD: think a full [00:03:00] balanced diet.

So yeah, chicken nuggets and fries, those are the favorites. Every other picky eater will can eat chicken nuggets and fries every day. 

Dori Durbin: That's well, and as a a children's book coach, an illustrator, I get to help experts. You know, take their big ideas and kid size them into stories that families can actually use.

So working along with you on the Worry Garden showed me how powerful it is to take what you know, these experiences that you see every single day, and to convert them in a way that talks to the kids very, especially like specifically talks to them. So what was it like for you to see. What you do every day come alive through a kid's book.

What was that like? 

Lum Frundi, MD: I was like a kid again. Right? It was, it's interesting 'cause I've talked about it so many times, but you know, we talk and focus on the parents and a lot of times the kids are just there passively. But [00:04:00] this is the time as I started working with you on the book, I started really paying attention to the kids.

And getting them involved with it. And you can see the light bulbs, uh, in their eyes. You can see how they love the engagement. And you can see how it's not about, I don't wanna connect, I really wanna connect. But every time, uh, they get to the mill, uh, to the table and they're scared, they don't have that name for it, like I said.

And there's that behavior. And then there's. Appointment from the parent and then they take it, they internalize it. And the other thing is, you know, you start paying attention and how we are talking about foods in front of our kids, right? Because a lot of times when they start like, oh, my kid is picky.

He's so picky and stuff, and then they start identifying now with that. Oh, I'm a picky eater. I'm not going to eat that. And it just reinforces that behavior even more where you're struggling and you're trying to figure out where, what is the disconnect? Because we, they've taken this fear, they've labeled the fear [00:05:00] now as it's this scary thing, as is a picky eater.

They identify with it and then we reinforce that, look, I'm a picky eater. I'm not going to eat it. Yeah. So but then that changed where now we're getting the kids involved, we're getting the kids involved, whether it's naming the fear or trying to figure out what that trigger was, and then trying to figure out like.

So what do you like, right? Like, what flavors do you like? Or what one vegetable do you like? And then you start building on what they like, as opposed to just putting a plate of broccoli that looks like a tree for some kids and like, okay, eat it. And then looking at it like what

Dori Durbin: I am sure that that's pretty common too. I, as you're talking, I have memories of eggs and I was deathly afraid of eggs. I thought they looked like baby chickens. And I think, you know, broccoli could look like a, a frog, you know, so they're like these fears of, who knows, right? So when [00:06:00] we have a child who has this anxiety about food as a parent.

Is my go-to usually to sneak it past them. And if so, what should I be doing instead? 

Lum Frundi, MD: So, so as a parent, what, what we start with is with the food in front of you, then, then why, why is there a fear with this particular food? There's usually a trigger somewhere with a lot of kids. It's because they're not familiar.

'cause you know, once you start out as infants and stuff, most parents or most uh, kids are, uh, serve puree foods. Like you start out with formula and then you go to purees. You're not seeing that plate in front of you. You don't know what it looked like before it was all mashed up. So they used to this mashed up foods that you're not.

Seeing, and then you transition now to maybe even table foods, but by the time you do the table foods, you're cut up into nice little looking boxes or strips and stuff that look good, and then you [00:07:00] switch over. Now you're presenting them with a plate that maybe they've had it be, they've had the, the carrots before, but it was so mashed up in a different form and now looking at it in a plate, they're looking at you like.

Okay, what is this? So knowing, understanding this loop as a parent, instead of forcing it saying, oh, you got to eat your vegetable. You one more bite. You are, you are causing that anxiety to be big. 'cause it's like someone else standing in front of you telling you to eat. I usually use this as snail 'cause I don't like smell, but.

There are people who look at it as a delicacy, and all I see is this slimy, brown looking thing, and you are forcing me to eat it. And in my mind, I can't even fathom the idea that that is gonna go down to my throat. I'm gonna force my, it's just like, just the thought of it. Like, again, nauseated, you want to gag, you wanna throw up, but there's all that anxiety that's getting you into that fight or flight mode that creates that.

Stomach upset, your heart rate is up, and then you see kids who actually gag and vomit, and then you get off the table [00:08:00] and yeah. And with all of that, as a parent too, parent to the rescue, either like, okay, it's not working. All right, get off the table. Guess what? That brings back the relief for the kid.

Like, okay, that's the win. I, I escaped it this time, I'm gonna walk away. But then, so for parents, then I'm like, okay, we have to really reframe the entire mealtime, right? Where rather than like, you are picky, we reframe, starting from how we talk about food in front of them, reframe on how we present the plate in front of them, or even what we say about it, where instead of forcing you to eat a bite or take one more bite, it would just present the food in like, okay, it's dinner time.

Let's eat. Even eating the food in front of the kid, it's like you're teaching them how to eat it. Imagine you're in a foreign country to put a plate. This is a beautiful delicacy. You look at everything like, how do I even eat this, right? Do I dip it? Do I like, I dunno. So it's like [00:09:00] starting reset and really teaching them what do you do with it?

How do I chew it and stuff. 

Dori Durbin: It was interesting with working with you on this. I didn't realize how many times, we, I just assumed things, you know, and we were talking, you know, like different scenarios on different pages, and I thought, what in the world? I never, ever thought about this from this context.

And so, even just with, you know, walking away from the table or feeling like I've heard before, people say, oh, if you're, you're a big boy, you should eat this, piece of meat. And we talked about in the illustrations, you said, Dory, that that plate. For after, after, uh, the main character's name is Luna, after Luna is willing to try that.

That plate's too big. There's too much food on that plate. And I said, what are you talking about? And I, it was because you had practical experience. So talk about that. Even just that one piece was really interesting 

Lum Frundi, MD: to me. Because a lot of times we, we say and we say that a lot of times [00:10:00] as pediatricians, as providers, you want to eat the colors of the rainbow and the parent will hear that and then fill this plate with green and red and yellow and all these beautiful looking colors.

But in the kids' eyes, this, this is all new. This is huge, this is overwhelming. And it's just like, where do I even. Start. So it makes, creates the anxiety even worse, where if you are introducing, then you have to find something that the child already likes. Maybe one tiny piece that they're already comfortable with, that reduces that overwhelm.

Now the new piece of food you're introducing, you want it to be there. But not too big, small enough where it's like, okay, I know I'm afraid of this, but this is small considering, right? It gives them that kind of comfort where I can handle it. Maybe I can face it, maybe I can touch it. Maybe I can even smell it.

It's small enough where I can pick it. I can play with it in my hands because the whole idea is to. Make them to become more and more familiar with the food. When you look at [00:11:00] something like, oh, this is not too scary, okay, then I have that courage to kind of touch it. Okay, maybe this doesn't feel too bad now, maybe I can pick it up and even smell it.

So allowing them to exploit because the kids, you know, once they're toddlers are toddlers, explore all the time, right? The kids are curious all the time. They wanna touch, they wanna. Pull the pick stuff from the floor. They smell it, they lick it and stuff. That's how they explore. But sometimes when it comes to the table, we expect to put this huge plate in front of them and say, eat it.

Yeah. But we want to give them a small enough where they have that courage to kind of explore it and then that kind of and they start seeing that it's not as scary anymore. Okay, maybe I can lick it, maybe I can taste it. Oh, I wonder what that tastes like if I put it in my mouth. So it's the process.

And so by the time you're getting to the big plate, you've already skipped over multiple steps along the way, and the kid is gonna be overwhelmed and then that worry really just goes out of proportion. [00:12:00]

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I love how in the book we took worry anxiety about the food and turned it into worms. And you, maybe without giving away the whole story, maybe you can tell them a little bit about how the garden comes into play in your book.

I think it's really brilliant. 

Lum Frundi, MD: Okay, so, um, we. We did worries. Right. And this book, I know we are really talking about picky eating, but my hope is that it goes even beyond the table. There's so many worries out there. We talk about picky eating as a new food. It could be going to a new place, a new school and stuff like that.

Once you have something that is not familiar. Those thoughts start coming in. That's where the worry comes in. Right? And you know, with any worry or anything that is scary and new and has no name to it and it's unfamiliar, if you don't really kind of name it, it goes bigger and bigger and bigger. It leads to avoidance.

So the worms coming where [00:13:00] these are the worry worms. If you don't pick up the worms, they're going to eat up your garden and then, and eat up your garden, which is your mind's garden, right? And, um, the thoughts are gonna keep coming in, in life. You have good thoughts, you have thoughts that are good thoughts where I'm saying thoughts that are nourishing, that encouraging to, for you to do what you need to do or the other worry thoughts.

Instead of just eating life away, where it's like, it keeps you in that place where you can move forward. Your leaves are all withered and stuff. So the worry comes in really from the thoughts like you have to, in order to move forward, you have to plug off those worry gardens, the worry worms that are in essence, making your beautiful garden into some brown and plans that are not really thriving.

Yes, 

Dori Durbin: I, I love that imagery because I think. Not only do you tie that to thoughts, but you'll also kind of show how if kids take just even food preparation or growing the [00:14:00] foods, it gives them a whole new appreciation. So talk a little bit about that too. 

Lum Frundi, MD: Yeah, so, and then bringing it back to getting them familiar with the foods, right?

So just like putting a big plate in front of you is something that is not you don't know about. It takes a while for you to become familiar with the foods, to know that. It is not it is not as scary, but the only way to do it is to make them become, make them engage with it to say, Hey, this is not as scary.

Or, let me show you where this, this is coming from. We go into the gardens and kind of start planting and, and. You can see how it grows. You become familiar with it. And this is actually helpful, even more so for kids who have very sensory sensitivities, right? I think now they're really, uh, over time research is showing that being engaged with, whether it's gardening and touching the soil and stuff, becoming familiar with how that feels.

It helps you, it gives you that exposure where you're not. Sensitive to stuff, it reduces that fear. Whereas if you're [00:15:00] avoiding it, the fear is growing bigger and bigger. So it, the more familiar the child is with the process the more you know where the food is coming from, the more you understand the process of growing and, and then even the, the reward from your hard work.

Imagine if you've done all of this or like, oh my gosh, I did something right. It, it really nurtures them in so many different ways. 

Dori Durbin: It is beautiful, and they really, you talk about having a rainbow of colors, it's right there in the garden.

Lum Frundi, MD: Yeah. Then you're experiencing those colors every day, so you're not only seeing it on the plate, you experience it every day, where when you see the colors on your plate, it's not as. Scary. It's not as overwhelming. It is real. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: I love that. So let me ask you this. This is probably a hard one to answer directly, but are there specific foods that a lot of families. Say that their kids really stress out about trying to eat?

Or is it kind of just an array of different things? 

Lum Frundi, MD: This is it's an array of different [00:16:00] things, but I would say more so vegetables. And then when you get into the vegetables there are certain vegetables that are hard ones for some kids. Like the biggest ones they've seen is peas. Peas. Peas.

Yes. And why is that? Because the peas are. They're a lot, a little bit bitter, right? And when you look at the whole vegetable family, it is not sweet. It is more on the estrogen. It's more of the bitter side of, of the food chain, right? So imagine if you know you have a kid who. It's, uh, you go through all the baby food stage and then they intro, they get introduced to packaged, uh, snacks and stuff.

What the packaged snacks are. It looks beautiful, right? The packaging looks beautiful. They've shaped it well. It looks nice and then, but when you bite into it, it's very sweet. It is high in salt and sugar. So now you try, you have this palate that is trained and used to the [00:17:00] salt and sugar, and then you come back and then you present to them a plate of vegetable that's gonna taste horrible.

I usually use this example for parents, like even take a a sweet strawberry, right? And it is nice and juicy, but if you gave them candy. To eat and then you give them that strawberry. That strawberry is not as sweet anymore. It just stays yucky, right? So it's about understanding that, hey, this is this.

They're not familiar with it. If their kids who are snacking all the time, by the time you're bringing those vegetables there, it doesn't taste as good. So while we're introducing, we have to start limiting or expanding the palate to reduce the sugars and all the other stuff. 

Dori Durbin: That makes a lot of sense.

And you're right, it, everybody's gonna love sugar first. Right.

So I guess another question that I have for you is when you think about your book being used with families, what [00:18:00] are your hopes for the book in terms of how will the, the parents use this book? What can the kids learn from it and maybe what can the parents even learn from it? Right. 

Lum Frundi, MD: So I'm hoping that it really fosters connection and growth for both the parent and the child.

For the parent is, I'm hoping that they become aware right, of, uh, of that trigger for the kids. Because every child is so different, right? Instead of going into mealtime, like you're stressed out, the kid is stressed out 'cause they know you're gonna try to force them to eat something and you know, this kid is probably gonna throw a tantrum again.

So it's like you're going into mealtime, like you're going into battle on both sides. But then coming now as the parent, like. Okay with that awareness that it's probably not because the child wants to is bad per se. It's not because the child is a picky eater per se. We're kind of trying to remove that name or the remove that label.

It's just observing the child and then finding that way of like. [00:19:00] What is that trigger for you? And once you bring awareness to it, then you can label that trigger, whether it's a worry worm, right, or whether it's a weed or something that we have to take care of to together and for the child wants.

Every child wants that connection we build for relationship for the child in their home. Is that first place is that safety, right? But once there's stress and that safety, there's that un uncertainty where anxiety increases it beyond even down the line, depression increases and stuff because that connection is lacking.

So hopefully as the parents becomes aware of it, they find that place of connection where you can then start blocking off those worry warms from your garden and having ways where you can weather, it's gardening together. Whether it is grocery shopping together, if you don't have that time, but find that thing that connects and then you help you face the challenges of mealtime together or other challenges in life together.

Dori Durbin: Love that. Absolutely love [00:20:00] that. Well, I have a couple more questions left based off of our time, but one thing I want is for people to know how to get ahold of you, where they can follow you and see what's going on with what you're doing with the book and within your business itself. 

Lum Frundi, MD: Well, I am on Instagram, Dr.

Loom, MD on Instagram. I am also on Facebook. I have a Facebook FA page, generational Wellbeing, and I am coming up with the website for the book too. The book is gonna be on Amazon, the Worry Garden, planting Seeds of Calm. 

Dori Durbin: Yes. Anywhere where fine books are sold too, right? Correct. Yes, correct. So one of the last questions that I have is if I'm a parent who is listening right now, and I have tried to absorb as much as I possibly can, but I wanna take a first step.

What is one first step that I could take? Just having heard what I've heard [00:21:00] today? 

Lum Frundi, MD: I think the first step then is. Before you go into the next meal with your kid, take a deep breath and just walk in there, release expectation from anything. Just put the plate in there and watch your kid observe what they're doing.

And once you become aware of what those, those triggers are. Until you become aware of it, it's hard to make any change. It's hard to help them out or help them fix something. You really don't know, uh, what the trigger is. So just take a deep breath, go to the next meal. Just listen. Just watch. Just connect with your kid.

If they eat it, that's okay. We celebrate it. If they don't, and then you're paying attention to why, maybe ask that question. Why? Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Research investigation. Obs observation. 

Lum Frundi, MD: Observation. Yes. 

Dori Durbin: Yes. Awesome. Well, I think my last question for you would be this. [00:22:00] Who needs your book? 

Lum Frundi, MD: Uh, every parent, I think every parent needs my book.

And, and the reason being, like I said we all face tra challenges, right? Yes. We're talking about PK eating. Yes, we're talking about the table. But every child, every parent, every person faces challenges. And every new thing, every new, experience is, can be overwhelming, but I think with this book, understanding that it is just something new.

If we can find a way to label it, it gets better and we find a way to replace that stress of a new situation with career and it and just face new things with a mindset of curiosity. Instead of here we thrive. 

Dori Durbin: So good. And I do agree with you. I think every parent needs this book.

Oh well Dr. Lim, thank you so much for your time today. People can [00:23:00] find your book at Amazon and hopefully many bookstores near them. Yes, but if not, they should track it down and 

Lum Frundi, MD: look you 

Dori Durbin: up 

Lum Frundi, MD: for sure. Thank you. Thank you for having me, and thank you for working with me on the book.

I have really enjoyed it and I'm hoping this will be the first of many.