Dori Durbin: . [00:00:00]

Welcome to, that's good Parenting. I'm your host, Dorie Durbin, children's book illustrator, book coach, and ghost writer. Today I'm joined by Eric Stevenson, a licensed counselor and the founder of Athletic Mind Performance.

Eric specializes in helping kids and families build resilience, confidence, and productive mindsets. Listeners, I know you loved our last three conversations with Eric, and today we're diving even deeper into what Eric is seeing with younger kids and sports. Now, Eric, for those who may be new to you, can you introduce yourself and share a little bit about the current work that you're doing with kids and athletes and as well as your parents?

Eric Stevenson: Thanks again for having me, and I'd, I'd be more than happy to, to kind of share a little bit about myself for, for those who don't know me or for those who do know me and, and kind of the, the new recent, um, changes as well. Um, so yeah, so I'm, I'm Eric Stevenson. I'm a clinical licensed therapist in the state of Illinois and in Florida.

Um, I also a certified mental performance consultant. Through the [00:01:00] Association of Applied Sports Psychology. So what all of that, um, terminology and, and technicality means essentially is, um, I work at the intersection of mental health and performance, all the way from working with, um, professional and college athletes to, um, high school, middle school, and even younger athletes and their parents.

Because as you and I, as you and I have talked about, that's kind of where it really all starts, right? From, from an early on on, um, set and age. So, um, so yeah, so for the last five years or so, I was working for a, a private practice outside Chicago. Um, working with a lot on mental health and, and just recently and very excited.

So I opened up my own practice. As you mentioned, athletic mind performance, um, just about three or four months ago. And, and really my goal and sort of my, um, my motivation is to help young athletes and their families sort of have a healthier relationship with sports, with the, the strong and powerful emotions that, that come with sports.

[00:02:00] Um, at the end of the day, I want my clients to live happier and healthier lives. Um, and of course it doesn't hurt if they perform a little better along the way and kind of see, see some changes because, um, you know, confidence and, and self-esteem and, and the willingness to fail and, and take chances and grow, um, is really, really what it all comes down to beyond, you know, skills.

Dori Durbin: That's so exciting. I love that you're working with some of the younger kids now too. 'cause we were just talking recently about how the mindsets of kids set so early, like three to seven year olds. Mm-hmm. And that parents and coaches are really like the primary architects of creating their lifelong mindsets, which is a little scary.

So, uh, what new patterns in younger kids are you seeing now that parents should know about? 

Eric Stevenson: Yeah, so, you know, um, sort of these new patterns that I'm seeing and, and, and I'm sure they're, they've been happening, but we're seeing them happen in sort of greater and stronger [00:03:00] doses now. And I'll, I'll relate these back to again, the mindsets that you talked about.

Um, our younger kids, let me, let's start here. We used to see very young kids, like we're gonna say the 6, 7, 8 year olds, right? They're kind of getting into sports more seriously. Um, really be these like. Curious tinkers, right? Like play different sports and make up games and, you know, just make up rules on the spot and, and really kind of figure it out, right?

And we as parents and coaches sort of let that stuff happen and that was really important kind of for their growth and development. Um, and, and, uh, Steve Magnusson, he's, you know, I would, I would definitely recommend anybody to look up his books. He talks a lot about like our current trajectory of, of society, especially in sports, talks about how we, we've tried to like professionalize.

Youth sports, right? To say, well, no more, no more pickup basketball down at the park. You know, get on a team, get an expensive uniform, go travel, have [00:04:00] three coaches go to their camps. Um, and it looks like from the outside, oh, it looks so nice and clean and neat. Um, but it's really demoralizing the skills psychologically and technically that kids need to, to develop.

Um, so because we've professionalized sports, let's say from an early age, well the mind and the psychology of these kids follows, right? So if we're emphasizing as parents and coaches, this is important. Like we're playing for a world championship for at eight u and you know, you have expensive uniforms, expensive coaches, well these kids are, are aware to say, oh wow, like this, this means a lot.

So what's happening is we're. Mostly unconsciously, um, unknowingly. So developing these athletes to have fixed mindsets, you know, stress is debilitating mindsets, fearful mindsets. And what comes with these is, in terms of your original question, the trends is [00:05:00] we're seeing kids give up at an earlier, at an earlier and earlier age, we're seeing kids make excuses, um, about why they didn't perform well.

Um, and then continuously we're seeing kids, um, meet or or approach sports with a lot of anxiety, right? So, so the giving up is. If they believe they're good or they're told they're good or they're on this team, and then all of a sudden that identity gets challenged because it's like, oh, you're not, you didn't have a good game.

Or they like to just, they just give, get away from it. Like, I'm just gonna give up, like I, I'm not good at this anyways. Or I'm better at something else. Like I, you know, I, I would rather do this. Um, so the resiliency and the grit to kind of keep going and like I was saying earlier, to figure it out is pretty low.

Um, and there's a lot of excuses where it's like, oh, it's, you know, my, this is turning me, or the coach did the wrong thing, or, uh, my, my teammate messed up. And it's not that they're bad kids or like, [00:06:00] oh, this kid is just making excuses. It's what we're seeing is a byproduct of a human trying to protect their identity and kids don't really know how to do that effectively, or they shouldn't be doing that.

But what they do is they resort to. Here's one I'll add is cheating kids. Are you, whether it's in school or whether they find a way in sports, is they lie about their, their score. I went to a junior golf tournament and I blatantly watched kids cheat, multiple of them, and I'm saying, wait a minute. What are we, what are we teaching here as, and, and our instinct is to go, this kid's a bad kid.

He's, you know, he's, he's lying, he's cheating. No, no, there, this is a byproduct of them trying to appease mom or dad or coach, or the pressure that they have on themselves. And so they're willing to, like inherently they know they shouldn't cheat, right? But they're, they're willing to bypass morals and values.

At the expense of their identity and their, and [00:07:00] their confidence to say, oh, well, like, you know, if I didn't play well, it's 'cause of this or that. So excuses or they don't, they give up, I don't even wanna try anyways. Or if they meet it with so anxiety and they can't get out and they think it's gonna go badly, they'll, they'll find a way to kind of cheat the system.

Um, so unfortunately, I wish I didn't say that 6, 7, 8 year olds are cheating, making excuses and giving up. Um, but that's unfortunately the state that, that youth sports is headed. 

Dori Durbin: And it's, it's interesting because you think, at that age it would still be so new and fun and we're, as parents, we're probably inadvertently putting pressure on them even by saying things that are powerfully praiseful.

Like, oh, you guys are awesome and this is great. And, um, so you've got me wondering, okay, if, if we're in a situation where. We want to praise their efforts to encourage them. Um, how do we do that in a way [00:08:00] that doesn't cause more issues for them? And I, I know we had talked about a three-tiered level. Um, so for instance, you know, what, what could we stay, say, what would be a good thing to say?

What's a better thing? Or maybe what's the best thing for us to say? 

Eric Stevenson: Yeah. In terms of, uh, praising easy. Yeah, praising the performance. Yes. So a, a simple way I could say this is kind of like the goldilock, I think everybody knows like the Goldilocks, right? So we'll call it the Goldilocks effect, which is, um, you know, there's, there's too hot, there's too cold.

There seems to be just right. Um, and I'd say, okay, too cold. Like, we'll say that's like the bad one. I think a majority, and I hope a majority of parents aren't doing this, where we're sort of that, you know, criticizing our children or saying like, like. You know, what are you doing out there? Or like that wasn't, you know, that wasn't done well or like, what are we, it's not what we've been working on.

Um, right. There's, there's a lot of just really negative feedback that of course is going to kind of demoralize the kids' confidence and, [00:09:00] and motivation to play the sport. Um, but sort of where parents unintentionally go wrong, and I think wrong is a strong word, but let's say not as productive is, is probably a better word.

There, um, is more the two hot phrase, which is a lot of positive reinforcement of saying like, um. You know, you did so well out there, or you know, it's, you know, you're, you're, you're so great at this and like you're just, you know, you make it look so easy. Um, really just again, trying to build the confidence and motivation in child children.

But what it's actually doing is, is in the end, it's undermining, undermining their confidence to, um, perform in really difficult situations later in life. Because if they're, if they think that they're a star, if they think that they're a champion, if, if they think that they're just gifted, um, 'cause that sounds what, you're so smart, you're so talented.

Um, there's gonna be a time in their life where they're not gonna feel that [00:10:00] way. Where somebody's gonna be as good as them, or a situation is going to create massive adversity. And if they can't succeed in it, at least not right away, they go well. I must not be that smart if I can't figure this out. I guess I'm not that talented, or I guess I'm not that gifted.

Um, if I can't do this, so that's maybe too hot. And I think just the, just right advice. The third tier, which is, you know, parents who have probably, um, but met with like counselors or therapists like myself. 'cause it's, it's hard. Or maybe read some, some material. 'cause it's hard to just do this. Um, that third tier is what I call productive feedback, right?

So productive feedback is really reinforcing, um, po productive mindset such as growth mindset, stresses, enhancing mindset, abundance mindset. Um, which would look like, okay, um, hey, like, you know, I [00:11:00] know you're feeling nervous, um, nerves. Can feel uncomfortable, but you know what? They can also make us move faster.

They can, uh, make us focus harder and they can make us perform better. Right. So you, you didn't say, um, oh, you know what, don't be nervous out there. Right. You'll be okay too, too. Right. Again, too cold, right, too hot. Or you didn't say like, it's like nerves are normal. Like they'll, they'll go away, right? Like it's, it, you'll get used to it again.

We're, we're on the right track. We're hotter, we're we're warmer. Um, but by saying they'll go away or don't worry about them, you're kind of also reinforcing that. Yeah, I know they're not that great. Like, like I don't like them either. But if you're like, oh, wow. Like nerves, like, yeah. Uncomfortable man. They can really do, they can really, they can really do incredible things for us.

You're developing again and again and again. You're developing this mindset that stresses enhancing. [00:12:00] So then when you are, when the child does. Um, meet a moment where there's going to be stress, something that's hard. Um, they're more likely to meet it with less anxiety. They're gonna meet it with more grit and resilience.

Um, and they're, and they're going to probably perform much better at that, that stressor as well, simply because of the mindset that they're taking on. And that mindset needs to originally be reinforced by, by mom and dad and, and coaches as well. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I like how you were downplaying the situation because I, I, I'm one of those parents, I'm one of those parents that would've said, oh, you know, it's normal to be nervous.

As soon as you get in the water, it'll go away. Um mm-hmm. Whereas I, I like how you are addressing what's happening to them. In a biochemical way, you know, it's, it's not just your stomach, it's the, the whole body is getting charged up to react to something and to [00:13:00] do potentially, if you can harness that, to do a lot with that extra energy.

Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Um, and I think that's something that as parents, we don't think about the, the chemistry of the body and what it's doing to our brains and our bodies. 

Eric Stevenson: Correct. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah,

Eric Stevenson: yeah, so, you know, I know you were mentioning on the chemistry and, and that's I think the fascinating pieces is our mindsets kind of set the foundation of what neurochemical, um, interactions are gonna take place in our brain.

And it's, it's really fascinating that if we have a, a stress debilitating mindset like, this is gonna make me perform worse, or like, I don't like this feeling. Um. We're going to see the brain sort of secrete more cortisol, more of that stress hormone, and versus if we actually take on a mindset of stresses, while maybe weird to feel, it's, it's something that is, means that I'm growing, means that I'm in a moment that's, um, where I want to be, means that I can potentially, you know, perform better.[00:14:00]

We don't see the secretion of cortisol. You actually see better neurochemicals like adrenaline and dopamine, um, which, which is great and leads to better focus and a lot less stress. And, and so it's, these mindsets are not just kind of, uh, you know, uh, you know, sort of, you know, oh, you know, it's very, I just take on this mindset.

It's kind of, you know, hippie mindfulness kind of thing. It's like, no, these, these mindsets actually leading to, um, the neurochemical, um, changes in, in our physiology and our neurology, which is really fascinating. Which. 

Dori Durbin: And the cortisol, what does that do to the body? Like from a performance standpoint?

Eric Stevenson: Yeah. So when, when the stress hormone is sort of induced, it's, it's creating this sense that like, okay, there's, um, action needs to take place or something needs to take place, which is not, like, sometimes it's good, right? It gets us going, like it gets us to get things done at work. It gets us to, you know, get productive around the house, right?

But, uh, but what it's, why it's not great in performance per [00:15:00] se, is, is because, um, it leads to a lot of like cognitive functioning. So a lot of thinking, a lot of brainwave increasing, um, which is. Not necessarily where we want to perform. Performance at the highest level happens in the present moment, right?

When we're focused on what is the task in front of me and cortisol is gonna kind of move us to this place where, okay, what's coming next? How do I prepare for this? What am I supposed to do? How do I get this done? Um, when you start thinking off time about the past or the future, um, you're going to enjoy that experience less and your brain body connection, um, like there is no muscle memory, it's neural memory.

Your brain tells your body what to do. But if that brain has a bunch of chemicals in it that are stressing it out, um, those messages to the body are not gonna be very clear. 

Dori Durbin: Even as, as a very minor college athlete I was, I think, in those moments I thought that it [00:16:00] was better to be thinking than it was just to be doing.

So that's a really interesting shift. Yeah. Okay. Let me challenge you with this one. So as a children's book illustrator and coach, I kid size experts, content into fun, engaging stories, right? Mm-hmm. But you also teach through story structure, so the problems, the struggles, the resolutions. So what's a story or metaphor that you've used with younger kids that turns I can't into an I'll try.

I, 

Eric Stevenson: yeah, I really like that, that, that's a really good question. Um, because I think, again. My first question is, you know, my first curiosity as a therapist and, and you know, counselors would be like, you know, what, where is this I can't come from? Right? Where is this resistance coming from? Right. And again, probably tied back to a mindset where they're in this fixed mindset that if I can't, then I'll not, then I never will.

Right. And you know, if this, if, if, if this doesn't come easy to me or if I don't find [00:17:00] success right away, then it's just not for me. Right. How many of us, you know, struggled in our first math or Spanish class and we're just like, oh, I'm just, it's not for me. And it's like, did you put deep diligent effort into it for two to five years?

No. Right. So like you don't really know, right? If, if it's for you, it's, we, we sort of take the first bit of information we get and then, and then create this longstanding narrative of whether it it is for us or it isn't. Um, but it's just way more complex than that, right? So it's, it's normal for kids to come, for me to work with kids and sort of be like, you know, I, I, I don't know.

I can't really do this. So, in terms of stories, I always have a few different stories that are fun that kind of give like this metaphor idea, um, which is, you know, which, which are good. Um, and let's see if I have, if I have one. You know, a very common one in the field of sports ecology. [00:18:00] Um. It's about, um, I, I don't know that you can use different names and stuff like that, but you know, there's this, it's kind of like almost Greek mythology sort of, kind of story.

And, and you can shape it with char different characters, different objects. You can create it however you can relate it to that child if they like certain characters or things. But we're gonna do very basic, right? We're do a boulder and a man. So right where this, you know, this boulder blocks the road and, you know, the, the man is, you know, he's trying to, um, you know, the only way to the other side is, through it, right?

So every day he comes and he, he chisels it away and he chisels away and he chisel it away and, you know, keeps Chis like, okay, I, you know, I can't, like, it's, it's just too hard for me, right? And, and every day he's, every day he is reminded that he can't, like, he's too weak, it's too hard. Um, it's not going to happen.

Um, and then, um, someone. Comes by, sees a, you know, sees a, uh, hammer on the side of the road, sees the sled, you [00:19:00] know, the sledgehammer on the side of the road, and they take one swing at the boulder and it breaks and shatters into pieces and the road is clear, right? So then the question becomes, and I ask the client, they're like, well, was this Zeus or was this like some mythical specimen that just hit this rock and it, and it crumbled?

Well, no. Right? Like, okay, well why did this boulder crumble? Right? And it, right, it wasn't the, you know, cliche, but it's good. It, it wasn't from the one strike that that person did, it was from the tens of thousands of strikes that the guy who gave up, gave put on, put on the stone. Right. And I think it's a really sends a really good message because you know when there's hope, right?

And I think trying. Has to develop out of this, um, belief that things are possible. And this is the underpinning of growth mindset, which is through time [00:20:00] and persistency, anything is possible. And if a child can have that belief, like I just, I'm, I haven't, um, I'm, I can't break this rock versus I haven't done broken this rock yet.

Like the rock. I, I believe the rock is getting weaker and I'm getting stronger. And it might not feel like anything, right? Because how many times do athletes go to practice and they're like, I don't feel like I'm getting any better. Or I even think I'm getting worse sometimes because I, I felt this as an athlete and athlete tell me this all the time.

Like, what am I doing wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, like how do you like how we're measuring things that are too finite or that are too close together? And it's like, yeah, this guy probably went to this rock and he hit it and he's just like. Rack didn't budge. I, I don't, you know, feel different, right?

And you're just reinforced every day that nothing's changing. Nothing's changing. But little did he know that he was getting stronger with every strike of the rack. And the boulder was weakening with every [00:21:00] strike of the rack. Um, and he was, he was. So I always ask, ask athletes, what if you were one strike away from finally breaking through?

What if you were one training session away from achieving a thing? What if you were one, you know, one more committed day or effort away? And if you can have that eternal optimism and belief, um, trying becomes more likely right from I can't, 'cause I always empathize with my, I know it feels like you can't, and I truly, you know, I, I can see that and empathize with you there.

Um, but if they have a, a true growth mindset that, okay, this is hard. It's not supposed to be easy, but with consistent effort, um, over time maybe. Right? And when there's just that little twinkle of, of hope, it turns from, okay, I can't, which is my therapy, I go, is that true? Like, do you know 100% like that You never [00:22:00] will.

Like I know what, right. Do you feel true? I go, is there a 1% chance that you might, okay, well I guess maybe yes, there's one. Okay, so you're saying, so now this I can't, statement isn't true. 'cause since you said there's a 1% chance that you can, um, maybe it is possible. And that can, that can really go a long way with them when they just have that little glimmer of hope that, um, they can, and that's kind of what leads to trying and that's where, um, intrinsic long-term motivation.

Comes from a growth mindset and the, the sort of this pursuit of, um, not perfection and not outcomes, but the pursuit of, um, per, you know, improvement. That's really what you know, because everybody's okay when somebody wins gold medal at the Olympics, you know, why, why do they get back into the gym and to the training and keep going the next week, the next month?

They've already accomplished the pinnacle of their sport because it was, it, the pinnacle of [00:23:00] their sport was a byproduct of their true love, which wasn't the gold medal. Their true love was the effort and the improvement that they would see every day. 

Dori Durbin: Okay, so I used to hear this all the time and you just verified it.

You have to enjoy the journey and not the results, and that's really what you're saying is like the process of getting better every day, whether you see it or not, is bigger than the results at the. 

Eric Stevenson: And that always comes from their why when I ask athletes, well, why do you play this sport?

Or why do you do this? And if it's because I, my mom and dad want me to, or because I'm good at it or because I wanna win this tournament or trophy, um, it's only a matter of time before that that motivation just comes to a screeching halt. But if, if their why is, um, because I love the challenge of it. Um, because it's just so exciting to try new things and to see how I [00:24:00] can get better if that's their why.

I know they're, they're, they're well on their way to consistent motivation for many years. 

Dori Durbin: I almost get chills when you're talking about one more strike. If they're one more strike away from having a breakthrough that is mm-hmm. Like huge. Because I think there's so many times when they, they do, like you said, people quit and they're just literally inches from, from having success.

Yeah. 

Eric Stevenson: And they might be inch away. They might be a mile away. But the thing is, we, my, my guess is do you wanna regret not doing it or do you want to live your life regretting not knowing if you could do it? And there's only one way to truly know. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay, so now as a parent who wants my kid to achieve this sense and I'm sending them into a game, then let's assume this is a younger kid.

Mm-hmm. If you were to come up with a 20 to 32nd three game script of how to help the kid prepare to enter into this event without feeling [00:25:00] nervous or with feeling nervous and using that 

Eric Stevenson: mm-hmm. 

Dori Durbin: Um, what would that script look like? 

Eric Stevenson: So I love that question. I'm gonna preface this with this is, um, I don't think, like, let's start here, is I don't think parents should give any pregame speech or talk unless the child is, you can kind of see that the athlete is needing it, right?

Or looking for some re reassurance because Too hot. We'll go back to the too hot, too cold again, oftentimes I see parents, you know, sit down with kids before games, like, okay, you know, this is the day like you've been practicing, we've been working hard for this. Like, you got this, you're gonna do great.

Like, trust in what you've been doing. You know, believing, like they try to almost like hype up or motivate their child again, like most things well-intentioned and well-meaning, but tends to, to backfire when the child's like I. I didn't. Okay. Like I don't really need that, but, but thank you. Right. Ari actually was feeling, you know, fine.

Right. Um, [00:26:00] and it's really like kind of letting that kind of kid do this on their own right? Is, is, is, uh, so vital and important, however, right. If a kid is clearly, and, and, you know, whether they're verbally or non-verbally expressing signs of a little concern or a little worry about, you know, it's a big game or it's a, you know, it's an important, um, team they're playing, uh, to try out.

This is like, this is times where a lot of times when I get phone calls, when there's a tryout, it's coming up. Um, what a parents, what a parent's role is in let's say 20 to 30 seconds, again, is similar to what I was saying earlier, is to create this environment where they're not downplaying, right? So they're not invalidating, which is like, oh, like, it's like, that's normal.

You'll be fine. Right? Like, don't pay attention to that. Like, focus on whatever. Right? Or Right. They're not trying to fix, take some deep breaths, relax. Like, [00:27:00] if you just, you know, take some breaths, shake it out, relax. Right? So not, not invalidating, not fixing, but reminding them, giving them some feedback, which is like, yeah, I, I, um, I've seen you do hard things before.

Mm-hmm. Or I've seen, I've seen you overcome, um, obstacles or I've seen you overcome adversity before. And here's this is, this is another opportunity. So what you're saying is true, right? Like you're kind of valuing that this is hard, this is a big game, or this is important to you, but you're also reinforcing, again, the mindset that, um, stress can be enhancing, that they are resilient, that they can do hard things, or they can at least give the effort to do hard things and not.

Is that is the reinforcement, um, that really helps kids get through, you know, scary situations. And you can apply this to first [00:28:00] days of first day of school, um, you know, a test that they have to take, meeting new friends at a sleepover. You can really apply this to a lot of things, which is like, just go in there and like, just be yourself.

Um, they'll like you, like you'll be fine. It's like, well, you don't, and I say, mom and dad is 100% sure they're gonna like them, because sometimes kids can be mean, like, I don't know, right? So we try to kind of put in these white lies to like help them, like, you'll be fine. Just be yourself. You're so likable.

What's not to like, right? All these really well grateful parent things, but really what's the most productive of them to hear is like, hey, like, yeah. Like, um, this is, this is a tough sit. You know, this can be a tough situation where you're going to meet a bunch of different people. Um. I, I've, you know what?

I, you've, you've told me and I've seen you, um, be in situations like this before and you know what? We'll see what happens. But when you, again, validate the effort, but I always am proud [00:29:00] of you taking on challenges.

I'm always proud of you doing uncomfortable things, even though you might not want to. And that's what fulfilled the kid goes, oh wow, mom and dad are proud of me because of my values, my efforts to trying hard things. So you didn't say you'll be fine, and you didn't say, don't be nervous. You said, I am. I am proud of you and I know that you have this innate ability to head into stressful situations and take them on facing it, you know, head on.

Dori Durbin: I love that. I love, I love all of it. And I think it's really like something, if we focus on that, it takes a lot of the pressure off the kids too. 'cause it's not about the finish, it's not about all the, the things that they're worried about. 

Eric Stevenson: Yeah. Because if you tell 'em to relax, they're gonna go, well, I'm not good.

I, I must not be good at that because I'm not, it's not working. Right. Um, mom and dad said I'll be fine. Well, I went out and I struck out every time that wasn't [00:30:00] fine. Right. So what I always say is that if it's something they can't come back and argue you with. Right. So if like you told me to relax and I couldn't do it, or you said I'll be fine and it wasn't, but if you said, Hey, you, you, you try to do hard things or you go for it.

When it's hard, they can't come back to you and say, well, well no, you're right. I did, I did go for it. It was hard. I can't argue with you there like that did happen. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I love that. Okay, so let's say they actually had a great experience and they did so well, and as a parent, and I've done this myself, you are proud and you wanna put it out there on social media and you wanna tell the whole world about it and boast about their trophies and their successes.

But does that cause additional anxiety and perfectionism? And if so, are there any boundaries that you would follow to kind of reduce that pressure and just let the kids enjoy [00:31:00] their success? 

Eric Stevenson: Um, yes. Right. I think, you know, in today's world, um, is more accessible and, you know, we can share things. To the whole world.

Right? And a lot of parents are very proud as they should be of their children and their accomplishments. And, you know, will, will tend to post it, um, all over social media. And, um, and then I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, it just, right, it depends on how much like the, the kid is involved in that actual process per se.

Um, but again, the question that I'm always gonna frame is, well, how is this serving their mindset for the future? Right? Where it's like, wow. Um, mom and dad didn't post me this week because I had a really bad week. We didn't win any medals. We haven't won medals for a month and I haven't been on Instagram for a month.

Right. So it's like, cool, it's great and all as the medals are coming, look at how cool I am. Look at, [00:32:00] look at these medals. My kid's winning, look at their trophies. Um, I'm sorry, they don't give out medals in trophies. Um, every weekend in Major League baseball, right? Or in the NFL, like you got you, you got one game in, in the end of February, in the middle of February, that's the Super Bowl, right?

So it's like the higher up we get on the learning curve, the less rewards you're gonna get. That's just, um, a fact, right? The less sort of, um, or the less likely it is to achieve an award, right? Um, so well what's gonna happen, right? Where it's like, mom and dad aren't posting me as much, and there's, there's definitely some limitations there.

And if they are posting you, well, what are we reinforcing as parents, which is like my child's value and worth and their self-esteem is built off, um, their success. I am happy or proud when they're successful. Now, right now comes, I'm sure what you're thinking, what most parents listening are thinking [00:33:00] is like, well, how do I, how do I feel proud of my child?

Right? And like, want to show them off without um, infecting is the word. I guess we'll use infecting sort of this, like this negative kind of results mindset, right? Because that's really what we're doing is you're really enforcing. So if we're gonna be creative, I might say, all right, poster your kids medal, but be very careful with the, um, comment that you put under it, right?

Like, Jimmy won his tournament this weekend, went 15 and oh. Okay? Again, we will be more verb and effort based to say Timmy's hard work and consistency through all the ups and downs are starting to bear it, starting to bear it, the fruit of the labor .

Good things can happen when he and the team maybe do these things consistently, right? So it's kind of like you're still showing [00:34:00] your kid, you know, you're still kind of proud of your kid and, and you know, showing that support as a parent, but you're also reinforcing what it took to achieve this accomplishment.

But if you say they were undefeated or this, what you're reinforcing is that they're just good or gifted or talented or whatever, which is not gonna be the case forever, right? But if you can say like, you know, look what can happen. You know, here's Timmy's medals. Look what can happen when, um, you know, when, uh, he's.

Committed through all the hard practices and, you know, sticks to, um, stuff that's, um, not easy, whatever you wanna say it, like specifically to, to the child is, is going to be, um, really helpful. So I think that's a fair balance. So, I mean, so up to me, I'd say probably no, no po like no posting at all about, you know, like rewards, right?

Because I want to stay clear of like [00:35:00] results based stuff. And there's still ways, and I think parents like, well if my kid wins and I don't like, like, here, let, let's ask you this, right? We were, we, you and I were athletes before social media. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. 

Eric Stevenson: Did you not feel loved or happy because it wasn't posted on Facebook or, or Instagram?

Dori Durbin: No, I knew, yeah. I probably would've been more embarrassed if they had done it. Yeah. Time. 

Eric Stevenson: Yeah. Like if I, if I hit two home runs in a baseball game and then my dad. I went in the car with my dad and my dad was like, uh, you have to go home and do all these chores. I would still be thrilled. I'd still be ha like, right.

I, it's, it's like I'm still happy. Like you have that inner fulfillment from the accomplishment. Kids don't need that extra reinforcement. Like if you're a kid had a great game, they know they had a great game. They don't, they don't need this reinforcement of like, wow, what an amazing game. Let's go get ice cream.

Let's go post about it on social media. Let's go do, do this, this, this, and this. Like, [00:36:00] you're not undermine, you're not, um, um, you know, excluding that emotion if you don't talk about it, like you don't need, well, my kid had a great game and we get in the car and I don't see anything about the game. I'm a bad parent.

You're really not. What you're actually doing is you're showing that your outcomes. Are not what's valuable to mom and dad are not what's meaningful to us. Right? But if your kid has a great game, but they picked up a kid who fell, that's what you're reinforcing to say. Like, 'cause they know they had a great game and you could be like, Hey dude, like it was, it was really cool, you know, to see you pick up, you know, to see you pick up your teammate.

You know, when, when, when they were down. Like, you know, we're really proud of you for, for being such a good teammate. Not, that was awesome. Like, how many points you scored? Or like, that was so cool, like this play you made. Right? It's, it's, I love watching you play [00:37:00] and, and then reinforcing that stuff that they did, not the outcome that happened.

Um, so I guess to kind of boil it down would be, um, if you're going to praise your child, like be very careful with. The terms you use stay away from like these sort of nouns of like stars, you know, and adjectives and, and stick more to verb stuff like that. Like their persistency, their hard work, their effort, their, their resilience led them to this opportunity to get X, y, Z award.

Um, and then car rides back again. If they're having a great game, you don't need to reinforce it, you know, you don't need to acknowledge how great it was. Um, and actually what I tell coaches is especially like a, like high school and college kids say really good performances are the perfect time for you to really get [00:38:00] on them about things that they didn't do great in the game.

Right? To say like, because if they had a great game, they're feeling good. If a kid is feeling good, they're gonna be more receptive to taking in information. To say, Hey man, I know you had a great game. You know, hey, you know, um, you know, great job. But like, you know, I think we need to do a little bit better job of sticking to the fundamentals here.

Or I think, you know, I would really like to see you. And they'd be like, yeah, yeah, you're right. Okay. I could probably do that because they're in this, they're happy. Right? And vice versa, when they're sort of in, if they're in a post game where they did not perform well, that is the worst time to say, what were you doing over there in the second quarter?

Or like, what, what is your coach thinking? Or like, why does this keep happening? Bad performances equals emotional support from mom and dad. Good performances equals corrective feedback if necessary, because in a bad performance, they're not, they're not willing [00:39:00] or ready to receive any sort of, any sort of constructive feedback.

Right. They need, they kind of need that, that support from you. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. That's actually, I'm, I'm thinking back. Okay. First of all, I think people are probably in their cars looking at their, um, social media reevaluating it. I just thought, oh, I need to go back and look and maybe delete the post. Um, but then second thing is, as far as, you know, when the kids are doing really well, that's really interesting because I think you're right.

Our, our natural inkling is to be like, you are amazing. That was fantastic. You're such a star. And like, you know, like mm-hmm. Enhance what they already innately know. Yeah. Versus saying, Hey, you could have kept your head down a little bit and that last part would've been completely easier for you or whatever.

Um, yeah. Yeah. 

Eric Stevenson: Because we're just reinforcing the brain to go, wow. When, when good results happen. I get good things from it. We're, what we're doing is we're creating the foundation for a transactional relationship with the sport. Wow. Look at how, look at how happy mom and [00:40:00] dad are. And we went to my favorite restaurant and the music was loud in the car, and I got to go to my friend's house that night.

So the brain's going, okay, well next game, you better. Like if you want that to happen again, we need to create these results again. And then the second the brain starts to emphasize results and outcomes, here you go. Performance, anxiety, anger, trying too hard, overthinking, fill in the blank. But if your kid has a great gain and you just kind of acknowledge maybe like non-performance based behaviors, like again, like, hey, I really liked, um, you know, how you kept your composure in that one error you made.

I really like how you helped your teammate, or, I really liked that you were communicating with your, you know, coaches after that play. If you get more like. Non-performance based reinforcement, well then your kids are gonna go, oh, like mom and dad. Don't change the way they act with me no matter how I perform.

[00:41:00] Therefore, they're reinforcing the idea that performance is not predicated on, um, their love or happiness of me, and it's not transactional. What they really care about is my choices, my efforts, and my actions. And that's it. Like you can give your kids a ton of praise after a bad performance, right? They can perform terribly, but you might be like, gosh, like it, you know?

It wasn't going on, it wasn't going, you know, the way you want it out there, but man, it was so fun to see how you just kept getting back in there and, and fighting and getting aggressive. Like, that's so hard to do. And like, I'm, I don't know where you learned that, but I'm so impressed how you just kept digging your feet in.

It doesn't matter, the performance, and vice versa. They might have a great game and you might say, Hey, you know what, I'm Alyssa a little disappointed in how you showboat it after that second goal. Like that's, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, the great goal and all, but I'm not, [00:42:00] that's not kind of what I like to, you know, to see.

And, you know, I hope we're gonna be better than that in the future. So, like the car ride home, um, is, is, should not be determined on outcomes at all. How, how talkative or not talkative or what kind of reinforcement we're giving the car ride home, if there's, if there's any talking, should be only about their choices, action, and efforts that they show during the game.

And now you're reinforcement over and over and over again. Kids lucky enough, maybe to get to college sports. Well now their foundation is built on efforts, composure, actions, um, choices, which are, which are going to put them through those difficult times. They're going, wow, everybody here is good. Wow, this is really hard.

These workouts are hard. This is challenging and not what's going to, to hopefully get them through a lot of that adversity. 

Dori Durbin: I love that. That's such good advice. And it, it takes out that whole [00:43:00] desire to say, oh, you're a superstar to your effort, your tenacity, your grittiness. Mm-hmm. Awesome. I love that, Eric.

That's perfect. Okay, so I hate to say it, but we're almost outta time. So before very last question, I want our listeners to know where they can find you and get more information about your work. 

Eric Stevenson: Yeah. Um, I am on Instagram at Athletic Mind Performance. Um, my website is athletic mind performance.com. Um, I think.

Following my, if, if you go to my website, you'll see kind of, I have a breakdown of kinda what sessions with me might look like. And then Instagram, I'm always like, Hey, if you wanna work with me, you're not sure, or you want more questions, um, go to my Instagram. You'll see videos of me, right? You'll see kind of how I, my theories on things, my takes, my parent tips.

Um, that's a really good place to like, you know, you'll get to know a version of me, if you will, if you go to, to the Instagram. Um, and, and I always, you know, rec and I always, um, reinforce people like, you [00:44:00] know, there's like this podcast, there's a lot of good questions. And I say, parents, if you have questions, is this right for my kid?

Is this, is this, could this be helpful only for me as a mom or a dad? Am I, I'm a coach, I don't have a kid, or I don't, you know, um, I just wanna know how to be a better yes, ask these questions, you know, shoot me a DM on Instagram or, um, an e an email, um, that you can, you could find on my website as well, and I'd be more than happy to, to answer for them as well.

Dori Durbin: Awesome. And I'm assuming, athletes could ask you questions as well. 

Eric Stevenson: Oh, absolutely, yes. Yep. I always, everybody, every athlete that I work with, I'm like, if they're old enough and if I feel like it's good, it's say, Hey, you gotta follow me on Instagram. Not that I need more followers, I have plenty of followers, but that, the stuff that we're talking about in sessions, like you might find a video or clip that I might post that sort of reinforces this or gives you a new perspective way to look at it.

Um, which, which can be really helpful for them as well. Yep. So athletes, um, it's definitely meant for, for athletes as [00:45:00] well. 

Dori Durbin: Love it. So you ready for our last question, Eric? 

Eric Stevenson: I am. I hope so. 

Dori Durbin: So I'd love to encourage our listeners who might be feeling like a little bit overwhelmed by what they should be doing versus what they have been doing.

Um, so you often remind families that change happens through small consistent changes. So for the parent who might be rethinking their comments from last night, right now, what's one small shift they could try this week to help their child build more of a bulletproof growth mindset?

Eric Stevenson: Yeah. I always say, 'cause this is hard, right? You know, I'm the expert quotate finger quotations. Um, and I practice this and I listen, I read about this, all this stuff, and I get it. And I, and I, and you know, I'm, I'm on the team with parents to say, it's great when you listen to this on a podcast and you know, in theory it's awesome, but how do we do this in real time, right?

How do I, you know, apply this stuff in real time? How do I remember to, this things are so busy. You know, fill in the blank. So I always say, let's, you gotta really start easy. So two things I [00:46:00] have is find one opportunity during the day to reinforce a behavior, a choice or an effort that your child had with a verb, right?

And again, that can be in school, that can be in sports, that can be in anything else, right? Just one. See if you could do it, you know, one time right? To say, Hey, I know, I know you wanted to hang out with your friends. Um, but, you know, I really, I really thought it was, um, it was really good to see you sit through the hard homework, you know, or give out, you know, you know, be patient with the schoolwork that you had to do today.

So it's so. Small, but it's so in the long term, when it happens day after day after day, it's so powerful over time and at night when I might say, set a reminder on your phone or have a little notepad next to the [00:47:00] bed, this is where the mindfulness of the parent comes into play to say, okay, did I say this verb to them?

Did I reinforce them? And if I did or didn't, let's say if I didn't, well what, where was an opportunity today that I could have done that? Right. And I think just doing one of each, just say, okay, where was one where I reinforced like, uh, you know, sort of like a label. Like, oh, like you're, you know, you're so smart, or you're talented, or there's a many, there's even negative labels, right?

Like, like you're just, um, you're just, uh, a hardhead, right? You're just like, I, you, you hear the bad ones too, right? You're stubborn, right? Where do I, did I reinforce the label and how would I replace that with, with a verb? But if I always say to parents is like confidence, the child's confidence doesn't come from positive reinforcement.

Positive self-talk comes from staring at a mirror and pointing at [00:48:00] yourself that I'm the best in the world, right? Confidence is built on the foundation of the freedom to go for it, right? To take a chance to say, I don't know how this is gonna work out, but I am willing to take that risk and to see what happens.

And that risk and that willingness to go for it is really only gonna come when the child's mindset is built on growth. Opportunity. Stress is good, right? These, these mindsets that create stable confidence that say, yeah, like if it doesn't happen today, there's more chances. Hey, if it doesn't work today, I'm gonna learn from it.

Hey, you know what if, whether I'm successful or not, what's important is my efforts, choices, and actions, right? So over time, that's what true confidence is built on. Is, is the core mindsets that the athletes have, not recency, not [00:49:00] positive self-talk, not not right, not what people say to them. That's short term, right?

True. Long-term confidence comes from that deep understanding that. I'm in a safe enough place to go for it and see what happens. And the only way they're gonna feel safe is if mom and dad and coaches, et cetera, continuously reinforce how awesome they are. You know, that's all like a label, but how great they are because of the choices and actions that they make.

Right? And that's gonna go long term. So it's a simple thing in terms of it's one thing a day. Um, but of course it's not as easy in, um, application. It takes some time for parents to get good at, right? They might say, oh, I did it twice this week. But then after a month or two, you're like, yeah, I, I was able to do it every day.

I found something to, and it can be even like really small stuff, right? 'cause I don't have games every day. They don't have practices every day. So it can be, it can be really even small stuff. Like, Hey, I'm really proud that you, um, you know, took spent time with your sister today when you could have been playing that video game right when [00:50:00] you, so again, not like you're a good, you're a good brother.

That's again, right. You're, you're an amazing brother, feels great, right? This or that, but it's my, Hey, I'm proud of the way you spent time, right? That you chose to spend time with your sister when you could have been playing video games. So now they're not going, oh, well mom and dad think I'm great versus, oh mom, and, you know, I'm proud of myself for making that choice to be a good person in that moment.

Dori Durbin: Almost like you need a little, um, parent tick list of the things that you're observing through the day that you can go back to and say, okay, which ones captions? 

Eric Stevenson: Yeah. It's like, it's like a, um, it's a game film, right? It's like athletes, right? They have a game and then the next day or the next couple days, they, they watch and go, oh, okay.

I could have did this, I could have done that. I could have did this. And then you take that information and do the best you can to apply it to the next game. And if parents see every day as a game, we could still be athletes in a way. If parents see every day as a game, they say, okay, like, let me check, let me [00:51:00] take a, um, let me take note of my own game film.

How did I do, did I, did I reinforce with the verb? Did I not, did I use a ton of labels today? Did I not? Um, how can I just be a little better tomorrow? 

Dori Durbin: I love it. I love it. Oh my goodness, you've given us so much good information, Eric, and so many ways that we can make small adjustments to improve our, our comments to our athletes, but also help them build confidence.

Um, so thank you so much for your time today. 

Eric Stevenson: Thank you for having me as always, always, always happy to, to share my, my information on athletes and, and counseling and parents. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Oh, thank you. And, and listeners, be sure to follow Eric on the Athletic Mind performance. Um, check out his Instagram. I love his Instagram.

It's really fun to follow and learn quite a bit from, we can all keep practicing all these skills. So thank you again, Eric. 

Eric Stevenson: Thank you, Dori.