Dori Durbin:
Welcome to, that's Good Parenting, a podcast that searches define simple steps to reduce your parenting stress. I'm your host, children's book coach, illustrator, ghost writer, and publisher, Dory Durbin. It's my passion to see kids and parents connect through clear communication and deep connection. And besides giving you content for your ears, I help experts kids size their content.

So let's get at it. Today we're diving into the world of children's sleep with an amazing expert. Sleep, as we know, is a crucial function in rebuilding time for our bodies, and yet so many kids struggle with getting a good night's sleep. And parents, if you're at all like our family was, those sleeping battles can often leave you exhausted and frustrated.

Is this you? Then this is for you. Today, I'm joined by Anna. 

Ahna De Vena: I'm the founder of the Sleep and Dream Foundation and [00:01:00] REVIVE Global, and I also formulated holistic sleep therapy over two decades of private practice.

Dori Durbin: Unlike conventional sleep consultants who focus on quick fixes, Anna approaches sleep challenges from the whole person angle.

She considers everything from nutrition to emotional wellbeing through a trauma informed lens as well. So Ana, before we get into deeper questions, I think listeners would love to know that when it comes to kids and sleep struggles, really they're not completely alone. So what is it that led you to focus on this area of study for yourself?

Ahna De Vena: It all started with my own childhood experience of trauma and insomnia, and I spent many nights. Laying awake in the dark, feeling scared and just didn't know how to calm myself, and those early sleep struggles followed me into my [00:02:00] twenties and I. It actually culminated in burnout and illness. I was diagnosed with a couple of autoimmune diseases and that's when I began to study natural medicine.

And as I started healing and I learned how to sleep, it struck me that we are meant to spend one third of our lives asleep, and yet we're not taught how to do it. So we never received that sleep education and. I realized when I had that big turning point in my life that it's something that's very needed.

And so I started to teach children and then eventually adults and now I do so many things. I have a charity and creating products and working corporately as well. 

Dori Durbin: That's amazing. And you're taking really a struggle that you had and empowering other people through it. 

Ahna De Vena: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's very close to my heart because [00:03:00] I understand how difficult it is.

Dori Durbin: So when it comes to sleep, I know one of the struggles a lot of parents have is trying to create an environment that really is a safe and comforting environment for their kids. And I actually, I think back to when I was younger and would read and I'd read and I'd read and reading usually is something that is used to calm people down and wind down.

When it comes to creating an environment for specifically for sleep, do you have some advice for parents? 

Ahna De Vena: I really advise to start with yourself and your nervous system. So children are exquisitely sensitive and they're always being impacted by their parents' mood and state. So if you are anxious or raising your voice, or even just stressed [00:04:00] about sleep, which is very common when you've had issues with sleep, then that can impact them.

It can actually elevate their stress, which takes them further away from sleep. So if you can take some time to shift into a calm, grounded mode. Then their system will begin to mirror yours. So it's a co-regulation that happens rather than telling them get to sleep. Which, you could say it's reasonable this day and age, people are stressed.

But I feel that from my work with families and my insights that I've had from listening to so many. That elevated stress in anticipation of it being hard or anticipating them not getting to sleep can cause so much trouble. It causes so much stress for everyone. [00:05:00] So the number one thing you can do to create a conducive environment is to calm yourself and become that environment.

Embody that calmness yourself. So you are leading with that embodied calm presence, and then your child will follow. The other main environmental factor is lighting. So artificial light is extremely stimulating. It stimulates wake up hormones, and so turning off overhead lights and having lamps that are low light, amber lamps are the best.

They're globes that don't have blue light in them. That is the most powerful thing you can do in the environment. And then perhaps we'll talk about screens a bit later, but locking them away in a safe by 6:00 PM would be my biggest recommendation as well. 

Dori Durbin: Is that the same with the lights as well? The artificial lighting?[00:06:00]

Ahna De Vena: Yes. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah I actually just saw a stat recently that said that like 43%, I think, and this may not be completely accurate, so don't quote me on it, but 43% of the children who struggle with sleep when they're young, continue to struggle as adults too, which, you're really crafting a routine, a behavioral lifestyle.

Just by turning off lights, right? 

Ahna De Vena: Yes, and just teaching them about natural light. Because we're part of nature, our bodies are part of nature, and our bodies have been designed to respond to the light in the environment. And if you think about it, we've only been able to flick a switch and turn night today for about a hundred years.

Yeah. And before that, we couldn't do that. We would light a candle. We'd light a fire, maybe a lamp, and the light from those light sources doesn't have blue light in. It doesn't have green light in it. [00:07:00] It's very soft. And so when you look at it from that perspective, and then you also look at when sleeping issues began, it coincides with the invention of artificial light and it being used domestically.

We are now up to 70% of children and teens experiencing sleep issues. 

Dori Durbin: Wow. 

Ahna De Vena: That is a huge concern. And it has such a detrimental impact on their development, their mental health. And you can see that, you can see it. 

Dori Durbin: Now going back to that whole concept of adults and their sleep, I know one of your passions is reshaping parents' relationship with rest especially if they've had those challenges when they're younger.

So how do parents even start to change that for themselves, much less their kids? 

Ahna De Vena: The biggest issue is actually overwhelm and. When you're a parent and you have so much [00:08:00] that you need to do and be responsible for, and then you're not sleeping, it turns into a cycle of high stress, which feeds the sleep deprivation, and then the sleep deprivation feeds the high stress.

So understanding that, and rather than focusing on sleep, actually focus on helping your whole system. Become more balanced and less stressed and on high alert. And so that's little increments during the day. One minute here, two minutes there where you allow yourself to do three or four long out breaths and you teach your body that you're safe and that it can come down out of high alert.

It's not something that you just you scramble through your day and you feel stressed and you just coping and having caffeine and sugar, and then you get to the nighttime. [00:09:00] It's actually a training yourself to come into a calmer state more and more. And of course we can't maintain that. We can't be calm all the time.

That's like a fairy tale. But to start bringing those practices in and then. One practice that I teach parents, which is, it is a hack, it's a way to calm down very quickly physiologically, and to shift your state is to elevate your legs. 

Dori Durbin: Okay? And 

Ahna De Vena: that's not your like yogic one. You can put your legs up the wall, but it's not as relaxing as just placing your calves or laying down flat and then placing your calves on three or four pillows, a stack of pillows or the end of the couch.

To increase that blood flow into your upper body and your brain. If you do that for 10 minutes, it's like a reset and it reduces adrenaline in your body. It brings you into a [00:10:00] calmer state quite quickly. So if you combine that with long out breaths and you do the long out breaths also during the day, just three extended out breaths helps to stimulate your parasympathetic nervous system and.

Calm you down at a very deep level. 

Dori Durbin: So with those breaths, does it matter how long you hold them or how you do it? Is it in the nose out through the mouth? Are there 

Ahna De Vena: Look, I teach people to do it any way they can, because having rules isn't great, but breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth can be quite cooling.

And then if you just count in for three or four on the way in. Then double that length on the way out. So you might breathe in for four and out for eight, but it's really just relaxing with the outbreath and extending the outbreath and telling yourself something that's soothing. Like it's [00:11:00] okay. Right now I'm okay and I'm just going to stay with myself for one minute and do a few long out breaths and just come into a calmer state.

Okay. 

Dori Durbin: So I'm assuming something like that would help you also fall asleep if you were to, be keyed up and then can't sleep. Is that kind of something you recommend? 

Ahna De Vena: Yes, definitely. And then that's a skill that I teach kids in my sleep kit for kids, it's called the bubble breath. And so it's a fun way of teaching them that they're like blowing bubbles, very gentle little bubbles.

And they're doing that with that longer outbreath. 

Dori Durbin: Ooh, I like that. So they imagine blowing bubbles away from them. 

Ahna De Vena: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: Okay. I was gonna ask you and half jokingly say, when we were growing up, there were all these myths about how you needed to fall asleep and what would make you relax.

And one of them, I remember, my mom still swears today, is the warm milk [00:12:00] drink. Have you heard of this? You drink warm milk right before you go to bed. I feel, I always felt like that was such a myth, like it was a way for me to get another extra glass of milk in that under her guise. But I'm wondering are there other things that are simple like the bubble breath and are there things that really don't work that people claim that they do help you to relax, to go to sleep?

Ahna De Vena: Yeah. What's sad about the whole milk piece is that there are good number of kids who are lactose intolerant. They don't know that. But it can also cause a lot of phlegm and buildup, when you have that milk just before bed. So I suggest if you are gonna give kids a drink, something like, chamal with a little bit of just a tiny bit of honey in it, but real honey, not fake honey, that can be calming for them if it's just a little bit warm.

And people underestimate chamal, it's our most [00:13:00] powerful anti-inflammatory and calmative. So that can be a really wonderful drink if you wanna give them something. And yes, there are practices that can come you down. So in The Sleep Kit for Kids, the book for the Children called the Sleep and Dream Book.

There are nine different ways that children can calm down and fall asleep, and they're like little games they can play. And one of my favorite and kids' favorite is the softness game. And that's a game about bringing your attention to where you are in the bed. And this works for kids, it works for adults.

When we are laying in bed, our mind and our thoughts are often in the future or in the past. But playing the softness game helps you bring your attention to the moment, to the bed where you're just paying attention to where you are and the softness that is all around you and everything that feels soft.

So your [00:14:00] pillow, your sheets, and the feeling of the bed under your body. The fact that you're cocooned in this softness. Just focus on how it feels to be in that cocoon of softness. Notice the textures on your skin, the pillow against your cheek, and everything that's soft. 

Dori Durbin: That's awesome. I have memories of being little and having that moment that you're talking about of just everything just sinking.

Into the bed. And I think far too often we lay in the bed and just try to relax our body and focus on our body and not what's around us. So that's really neat. And that's in your sleep kit for Kids book? 

Ahna De Vena: Yes. So the sleep kit for kids contains two books and an audio. So the, there's a book for children, which is the Sleep and Dream book, which teaches them nine different [00:15:00] skills that they can internalize and just use.

And that's also a language that parents can use with them at bedtime. They can say, Hey, let's play the softness game, or Let's switch to the thank you channel, or. There's like games that can become a language and skills that they learn and internalize, and then they'll end up using for many years.

And adults tell me that they love the skills as well. And then there's an audio that guides the children to sleep using those principles that are in that book. It's not an audio book. It literally guides them into a very deep restful state. And then there's a book for. Parents called the Good Sleep Guide for Parents, and that's a very comprehensive but easy to follow and friendly guide that teaches them about what their child needs to be able to go to sleep.

But the first part is actually supportive for them because it helps [00:16:00] them learn ways to self-regulate and calm down their nervous system. So it's a really complete holistic kit. 

Dori Durbin: So I love this concept. I actually did listen to a little clip on your Facebook or your webpage that you had a little audio clip of it and your voice is so calm and relaxing.

I thought, oh, this would work on me in a heartbeat. Yeah. 

Ahna De Vena: Yeah. Adults actually really love the recording. It's I dedicated the sleep kit to. All the like to the child inside us all to the tender child inside us all because we all have that tenderness. And I think when we go to sleep, we are we're vulnerable, where we're in that soft state.

And so there is that inner child peace that is there at night, I believe when we allow ourselves to feel it. 

Dori Durbin: Do you feel like in your [00:17:00] profession, and I see a little parallel between both of us here, that storytelling and visual just visualization in general is really important for kids to be able to do in order to put themselves into a space that we're describing that relaxation, that the calm, that just doesn't exist unless you look for it right now.

Do you feel like that too, like storytelling, visual techniques are really important. 

Ahna De Vena: Yes, storytelling is wonderful. It's so powerful and it is how children make sense of the world. And when we can use stories to mirror their experience or gently shape it, which I think is what stories we tell them actually do, then.

That can really help. So even stories about, a gentle bear or a sleepy lion or some animal that they love, a cat, a kitten, finding their clo cozy place and [00:18:00] yawning and thinking about something calm and feeling the snugs and actually describing that and doing it in a slow way.

Because I think when we are putting children to sleep. When we read to them, we need to realize that the tone of our voice and the pace and everything inside of that is entraining them. It's, and there's a. A guiding that's happening in stories, or it can. So that's why I don't recommend reading very stimulating stories before bed because they get excited.

And or if you are gonna read a stimulating story, always follow it with one that's calm. So a lot of parents will read a story, but then they'll read my Sleep and Dream book. They'll do it in a slow way and the child will start following along and it only takes, five or 10 minutes once it starts to become a pattern for them to then go to [00:19:00] sleep.

I also created a story called The Sleepy Little Owl, and it's about an owl that it actually gets separated from its parents in a storm, and then it has to learn to sleep on its own. I created that story for orphans and the little owl meets all these animals and the animals teach it how they sleep.

And so yeah, stories. I love stories and I want to add some stories to my resources eventually as well. 

Dori Durbin: As a children's book coach illustrator that, I love that. That's. Speaking my language. But I do, I find that kids, do they see themselves in those characters and see themselves in the moments that the characters are struggling or relaxing in this case.

Ahna De Vena: Yeah, 

Dori Durbin: and just finding a lot of peace in that. That's awesome. As we start to wrap up, I want first of all our listeners to definitely [00:20:00] follow the links that we're gonna include in the podcast and to follow Anna Dianna. But I also want you, Anna, to tell 'em where they need to look for you. So where's the best place to get a hold of you?

Ahna De Vena: So you can go to my website, ana devina.com. That's A-H-N-A-D-E-V-E-N a.com. Actually, if you just type into Google, Anna and sleep, you'll see all my things. But if you go to anna dena.com, that's like a hub for everything I do. And you can find everything. You can find the sleep kit for kids. You can find my charity.

You can even find my corporate work if that's something you would love to introduce at your workplace. 

Dori Durbin: That's awesome. Okay, so I have one last question. It's probably a doozy, but I know that our listeners really love actionable steps and I know that they love a good night's sleep. So while every child has [00:21:00] a different age appropriateness, are there a few universal sleep principles that do apply across age groups or any distinctions you'd offer for younger versus older children?

Ahna De Vena: I do love this question so we can talk about the universality and the individuality of sleep. So no matter your age, and no matter the age of your children, your state of calm matters the most. So it sets a tone for your nervous system and also your child's nervous system. So getting calm and really committing to learning those skills.

'cause it's just a skill, like driving and we had to practice driving. So learning some skills that you love and doing them often getting morning light because we need morning sunlight. Children need it as well, and that sets our body clock. It also sets a timer for melatonin in the evening and getting evening low light [00:22:00] before bed, so turning lights off or down and just having those little amber lights that have anchor the circadian rhythm.

Putting screens into safes so that kids can't get them is a very loving boundary to set. Your children will thank you if you do that. So having a time that's an electronic sundown time and really sticking to it even if you think I'm gonna be unpopular, parents need to start going against the grain now because we're seeing, 70% of children, as I said, are having sleep issues and that's having a very detrimental effect now.

For toddlers, it is about that feeling safe and having that healthy attachment and the repetition, the rhythm and the calmness. They're really co-regulating. And for school aged kids, it's very simple, but you're starting to empower them and that's why teaching them those skills so that they feel resourced.

They can go to bed thinking, [00:23:00] oh, I know how to play this softness game, or. I know how to watch the clouds in my mind, and they have these skills that actually have that sense of empowerment. And then for teens, it's really about being strong these days and having very strong boundaries that are loving and being an example of valuing rest.

Because a lot of parents have their own sleeping issues and they're watching that. But really be interested what's happening behind their door. Don't expect to have the, have them have screens behind their door and not be on them till really late or sleeping with them and, get educated about that.

It's a big topic. There's a show called adolescence on Netflix at the moment. I really believe every parent should watch it. It is an extreme, but it's becoming more and more common that children are being severely. Affected by being online [00:24:00] at night on their own. So yeah, having those firm boundaries is really hard.

And yeah, and just bringing that heart into it where you're really valuing rest in a world that's on 24 7 and having that be part of your home culture, you could say. And standing for that with love. They're my top tips. 

Dori Durbin: No, those are fabulous. I love how each one comes right back to the importance of sleep and how important it is really to make time for that.

Thank you so much for that, Anna. 

Ahna De Vena: It's my pleasure. I really love speaking to this and helping people in this way because it's one of the things that gives us so much in our lives. 

Dori Durbin: Again, everyone should check out your website. We'll include links in the show notes and just take a moment to spend time just looking at what [00:25:00] Anna has.

She's amazing. Thanks. So thanks so much Anna. 

Ahna De Vena: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.