[00:00:00] Jennifer Hayes: in the 20 years of working with kids, it has been a journey to get here and be able to be calm when they are being a hurricane. 

[00:00:11] Dori Durbin: That was the voice of parenting coach, Jennifer Hayes, who incidentally was a former nanny and worked with many ages, including those three-year-olds.

[00:00:20] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah, three man, three major is real three year olds. The tactics to work with three year olds and 17 year olds are the same. 

[00:00:31] Dori Durbin: Parents. Have you ever said something that instantaneously felt wrong only to find out later it really affected your children in a deep way? What do you do when you unintentionally hurt them? How do you restore that relationship today? You'll meet someone who can help her name is Jennifer Hayes. She's a parenting coach who is not only going to deliver that information to you, but she'll also help you to avoid it in the very first place. Welcome to the power of kids' books, where we believe [00:01:00] books are a catalyst to inspire and empower change. I'm your host Dori Durbin.

[00:01:06] Dori Durbin: today's guest has a robust work experience with kids! From professional nanny, juvenile youth center counselor, and now parent, coach, and podcast host. This woman has seen it all. She even has created her own method called Relational Parenting that combines the newest child psychology research and her own career experiences to help parents raise resilient, healthy, confident kind adults who don't need to recover from their childhood.

[00:01:37] Dori Durbin: Welcome Jenny Hayes. 

[00:01:39] Jennifer Hayes: Hi, Jenny. Hello. Wow, that was, thank you for that introduction. That was beautiful. I feel so special. 

[00:01:49] Dori Durbin: You're, you did this. I just happened to put it together. You are amazing. You've done so much with kids. Lots and lots of kids. 

[00:01:59] Jennifer Hayes: Yes. [00:02:00] Hundreds. Yeah. So many kids. 

[00:02:03] Dori Durbin: I had to laugh when I read somewhere in your bio that you worked from with preschoolers to teens.

[00:02:08] Dori Durbin: And I thought there's a parallel there. And so there is but that's a large group to try to understand and you've gotten nuggets of experience, everything from tantrums to teen tantrums. That's huge. 

[00:02:23] Jennifer Hayes: Yes. Yeah, so, I never knew that I was headed in this direction of like entrepreneurship and starting my own parenting method, et cetera.

[00:02:32] Jennifer Hayes: But now that I'm here, it's oh, duh. Like I can look back and be like, I was just constantly. Working with children and no matter where I was, even when I held professional office jobs in the medical field or wherever, I always had a nanny gig on the side. Or I was always just working with children.

[00:02:51] Jennifer Hayes: I was always drawn to working with children. And I always was really good at it. Kids have always responded really well to me. [00:03:00] And, my, my biggest thing that I try to remember when I am talking about what I know now is to make sure that people know, like I haven't always known all of this.

[00:03:12] Jennifer Hayes: I haven't always been, in the 20 years of working with kids, it has been a journey to get here and be able to be calm when they are being a hurricane. Like I still absolutely, my whole body gets triggered when I'm with a screaming three year old. Yeah, that's, but yeah, three man, three major is real three year olds.

[00:03:37] Jennifer Hayes: The tactics to work with three year olds and 17 year olds are the same. You just have to translate them into that age group's language. 

[00:03:48] Dori Durbin: It's probably a relief for some of the listeners who have teenagers to hear you say that. Yeah. And mean it. Yes.

[00:03:57] Jennifer Hayes: That's something that I've gotten some feedback on [00:04:00] people are like how can you need to niche down and how can you talk to toddler parents and teenager parents?

[00:04:07] Jennifer Hayes: About the same thing. And that's where Relational Parenting was created, is that there is a, there's a foundational skill to. Taking care of anyone, no matter who you are, whether you're friends, spouses your elderly parents or your young children, no matter who you're taking care of there's a very basic foundational skill that applies no matter who you are or who you're caring for.

[00:04:32] Jennifer Hayes: And that's empathy. And empathy, I always say is not a feeling, it's an action. Just like love is not a feel like there's an initial love or lust for someone. But love in a lifespan is action. And feel love from another person based on their actions towards you. And that's the same with kids.

[00:04:52] Jennifer Hayes: And if you say, I love you, everything's gonna be okay, you're safe, but you are regularly and constantly yelling or shaming or [00:05:00] judging your children, what they're going to feel is yelled at, judged, shamed and afraid. They're not going to feel the words. I love you

[00:05:08] Jennifer Hayes: your actions are always going to speak louder to your children 

[00:05:12] Dori Durbin: that's so powerful and frightening at the same time. 

[00:05:15] Jennifer Hayes: Terrifying. Oh my God, 

[00:05:18] Dori Durbin: even accidentally saying something that is unintentionally and emotionally traumatizing them without maybe even really realizing it at the time. You realize it three years later, or even if it's a week later. Tell me a little bit about your background. How relational parenting even developed and maybe a little bit about the method itself.

[00:05:42] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah so I worked with 

[00:05:43] Jennifer Hayes: kids for 20 years and I do in fact count my teenage years because I was. Babysitting constantly. I wasn't like, oh, on one, one weekend every few months. Like I was, I have been hands-on with children for a little over 20 [00:06:00] years now. And I worked as a camp counselor and guiding younger kids through like really hard emotional things at church camp.

[00:06:09] Jennifer Hayes: I've been taking care of little ones, infants, toddlers, school-aged kids. I would run summer camps for them. And then I eventually in college I had a stint working with children with autism and I worked as a preschool teacher full-time for three years. I've worked with a lot of different developmental ages and stages.

[00:06:36] Jennifer Hayes: And then after the preschool thing that's when I moved to Colorado. And I started being a professional nanny and working with, again, all ages and stages, mostly infants, through grade schoolers. But then I did do a couple of years with in a juvenile detention facility, and that was one of the hardest and best experiences of my life.[00:07:00] 

[00:07:00] Jennifer Hayes: Oof. I'm gonna get emotional. I learned so much about a population that is so misjudged and so misunderstood and so blamed and shamed for something that's not their fault. And I also was able to work with people who I didn't know or understand, and I had to cultivate some serious skills, some serious, like the empathy skills of I don't have any understanding of what's happening for you right now. And I know my job right now is to validate whatever's happening for you. No matter how I feel about it, no matter how I was raised to look at it, no matter how I am judging it right now, my job in this situation, if I wanna get anywhere with this person and cultivate a trusting relationship deescalate a fight.

[00:07:57] Jennifer Hayes: These boys were, these are big teenage [00:08:00] boys, like that you have to deescalate. I am not physically capable of doing that. You've gotta have other skills. And that was a big eye-opening experience and it gave me a real passion for teenagers. The last five I've spent as a private nanny. And that's when I really started reading the newest research, reading the books on development and taking all of my intuition and all of my experiences and combining them with the understanding of brain development.

[00:08:35] Jennifer Hayes: And it just flicked a couple of years ago and I was like, I could help so many more people by starting a business where I can teach this to parents. Because my focus had been, I'm going to go take care of the children and that will help. I'm going to teach that family these skills. And it's really hard to do that when you come [00:09:00] in as the nanny because the parents are the parents and telling a parent like, Hey, maybe there's a better way to do this.

[00:09:07] Jennifer Hayes: That's also a skill. It's really hard. 

[00:09:09] Jennifer Hayes: And so yeah, so I was like, I could help hundreds if not thousands of people of families if I taught this stuff versus going into one home for a year or two and helping them raise their kid. And then everybody cries 'cause we're all attached to each other and then moving on

[00:09:28] Jennifer Hayes: and so that's where I 

[00:09:28] Jennifer Hayes: decided to start relational parenting. 

[00:09:32] Dori Durbin: Hi friends, sorry for the interruption, but let me just throw something at you. You've got kids. You know what life is like, and you have the expertise to help another parent. Maybe you're a professional. Maybe you were an expert who has their own platform and maybe you're not, maybe you're just someone who would love to write a kid's book. If that's you and we're talking directly to your heart right now you should definitely book a chat with me [00:10:00] let's talk about your book and get it in action okay back to the podcast

[00:10:05] Dori Durbin: So I guess the next question would be exactly what is relational parenting. And how did you come up with it?

[00:10:14] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah, It took a little while to come up with that term, but I knew that. Gentle parenting was not the term I wanted to use. Peaceful parenting. Conscious parenting, mindful parenting, intentional parenting. These are all wonderful words and absolutely apply.

[00:10:32] Jennifer Hayes: But none of them were quite right in my mind and in my body, and I was like, that's not, it's not quite hitting the nail on the head for me. And really, I have never told anybody this. Once I got married, once I found my husband it clicked for me what I needed to call it, because finding a relationship where you can fully be yourself, fully be seen, all of the ugliest [00:11:00] parts of you are accepted and discussed and loved through just gross.

[00:11:09] Jennifer Hayes: Childhood trauma and taking things out on each other and whatever. I was like this is what the world needs. This is what the healthiest marriages are experiencing. How can we take this type of love, this unconditional love, and apply it to our children? Because yes, our children need boundaries.

[00:11:32] Jennifer Hayes: You need boundaries. In a marriage, I don't care how much you love your person, you need boundaries. You need to know who you are and what you can handle. You need firmness. You need, you need to give them expectations, you need to help them achieve, and you need to teach them how to emotionally regulate.

[00:11:48] Jennifer Hayes: But none of that comes through telling and yelling and shaming and judging. It comes through. I see you. I see that this is hard, and I love you [00:12:00] anyway. Then once we're, I'm gonna help you calm down, I'm gonna help, I'm gonna teach you how to emotionally regulate. Then we're gonna have a discussion about what could we do differently next time.

[00:12:13] Dori Durbin: I love that. I absolutely love it. I think the terminology it really does show that unconditional love that you're talking about. Because as parents we want the very best for our kids.

[00:12:25] Dori Durbin: And so we try to set up these expectations and these quiet, even if they're quiet judgments, to try to push them into a direction that we see. But it probably doesn't always feel like you're accepting. It might feel like you are judging and like you're. You're labeling them against something that they don't even realize that they're being seen as, or they're not trying to be seen as.

[00:12:49] Dori Durbin: And you talk about it in terms of trauma too. So can you talk a little bit about unintentional emotional trauma ? 

[00:12:56] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah. And I think that's really important, the unintentional part, 

[00:12:59] Jennifer Hayes: [00:13:00] there are parents who were not ready to be parents or, fell into it accidentally and carry a lot of bitterness about it. But I very rarely have I met a parent who was not doing the absolute best they could do every single minute of the day trying to raise their children. And so another part of this is also another part of the name of relational parenting is including that.

[00:13:27] Jennifer Hayes: No one is perfect and you're going to mess up and you have to accept that in yourself too. And accepting that in yourself too translates to accepting mistakes in your children. The unintentional trauma part comes out when we are unaware of the effect our actions are having on the development of our child.

[00:13:49] Jennifer Hayes: And so learning the developmental stages of children based on age will allow you to respond appropriately in a [00:14:00] way that does not cause them to shut down, go into fight or flight and constantly live in fear.

[00:14:07] Jennifer Hayes: And fear is another word that came up for me when you asked that because a lot of parents are parenting from their fear. We parent from. I'm afraid they're gonna be the, like this. I'm afraid they're gonna end up. I'm afraid they're gonna fail. I'm afraid they're not gonna have the skills they need when they leave at 18.

[00:14:25] Jennifer Hayes: I'm afraid that they're gonna be a menace to society. I'm afraid that other people are going to judge them. I'm afraid that other people are going to judge me because my three-year-old's having a tantrum in the grocery store, I'm afraid is the beginning of a lot of our thoughts as parents and relational parenting, because every relationship is messy.

[00:14:50] Jennifer Hayes: I was like, relational relationships are messy. They're imperfect. But if you want a healthy relationship, there has to be empathy and acceptance.[00:15:00] Relational parenting and learning child development, and removing the shame for parents as well from that is another key aspect of what I'm out here trying to do. 

[00:15:12] Dori Durbin: So let me ask you this. If you had, let's say a four year old and you were responding in a way that was not developmentally appropriate, could you give me what would feel like an inappropriate expectation for them, or might cause some level of emotional trauma if I responded in a certain way, could you give us some examples of what that might look like?

[00:15:36] Dori Durbin: Yeah, so I'm gonna 

[00:15:37] Jennifer Hayes: use the grocery store example because I feel like it's a common one. And I also wanna use one that's in public because at home our defenses are down. We're generally able to be calmer and more responsive at home. So in public though, we are worried about making a ruckus, causing a scene.

[00:15:55] Jennifer Hayes: And so your four year old and you are at the grocery store, and maybe they see something that they [00:16:00] want and they pick it up off the shelf and they bring it to you and they ask if they can have it. And you say, no, we're not. That's not on the list today. Four year old starts throwing a tantrum.

[00:16:10] Jennifer Hayes: Maybe they've asked you 17 times, you're at your witts end, and they're losing their mind. They're being loud screaming, crying, maybe throwing themselves on the floor. And the common response to that, and I have done this hundreds of times, so I just wanna preface it with that is to get down and get you use that low.

[00:16:35] Jennifer Hayes: A growly voice where you get really close to them so no one can hear you. You go, if you don't get off this floor right now, you are not, I'm gonna take away TV for a week, or I'm gonna take away your stuffy, or I'm gonna, we're not ever getting candy ever again. Whatever the threat is, and you get low and down and even if you're being quiet about it, it is a deeply terrifying voice [00:17:00] for a four year old.

[00:17:02] Jennifer Hayes: And so what I see the most is this immediate need to stop the behavior. And for to throw a tantrum that's pretty developmentally appropriate. They are still working on the skills of self emotional regulation. So when they have a big feeling about not getting what they want, you might have talked to them when they were two and three and you've started to emotionally regulate with them, but a four year old is still working on that ability to take a deep breath, calm down, and accept disappointment.

[00:17:39] Jennifer Hayes: And so a more appropriate response to a four year old who is still developing that skill is to set the boundary once or twice. And if they keep asking, we say, I'm gonna take this and put it back on the shelf now, or you can, we're not gonna talk about this anymore. [00:18:00] And you set the boundary. And then if they lose their mind, it's oh my gosh, look how frustrated you are.

[00:18:08] Jennifer Hayes: Oh, I would be so mad too. It's really hard when we don't get what we want. I see you, I need you to stop doing, and then I need you to get up off the floor. We're gonna go, okay, if we can't, self-regulate, maybe you get down, maybe you say, do you need a hug? And if none of those things work, we're seeing, we're speaking, we're narrating what's happening for the child, we're addressing the emotion, we're offering support.

[00:18:32] Jennifer Hayes: If none of those things work, you can say, baby, if we can't do this, then we're gonna have to leave the store. We're gonna need to go somewhere quiet and regulate. And it doesn't need to be a threat. It can just be, let's go somewhere where this stimulus is no longer affecting and overwhelming you.

[00:18:54] Jennifer Hayes: And maybe you then have to pick them up and carry them out of the store and you go outside and calm down, or [00:19:00] you go to the car and calm down and then you go back in and try again. And that might sound like a lot of work, but I. If we resort to threats every time our child behaves in a way that we see as I'm gonna be judged, or I don't want, I don't like this behavior, or this behavior has to stop right now, our child is just gonna revert more and more deeper and deeper, deeper into self shame and lack of self-worth.

[00:19:33] Jennifer Hayes: And anytime when they're an adult, when they are struggling to handle anything, they're not gonna reach out to friends. They're not gonna reach out to you, they're not gonna reach out, they're gonna hide. And this is where depression and anxiety and all of these maladaptive mental illnesses are coming from, and they're coming from a lot of places, but this is one of the biggest ones, is that we retreat inside of [00:20:00] ourselves because when we are vulnerable and imperfect, we are not accepted.

[00:20:05] Jennifer Hayes: Do you see after working with parents who, maybe this was the old pattern do you see the kids change with the adjustment and being more relational even in the time that you are working with them? Oh, absolutely. It can happen almost instantly. I've had experiences where it takes six months for a child to start responding differently and emotionally regulating themselves.

[00:20:29] Jennifer Hayes: And I've seen it happen in a day. And it depends on the age of the child, of course, their ability to comprehend and understand. But particularly with this one child who I worked with from the time he was two till he was four it took him until he was well into his threes to take a deep breath on his own.

[00:20:50] Jennifer Hayes: But, What I saw over the, my time with him was there was less screaming, there was less falling apart. He was still upset. [00:21:00] But if I was calm, when he was upset, he screamed it out of his body and then came to me for support. He was angry, he was screaming. I waited and I said, I'm here.

[00:21:15] Jennifer Hayes: I'm so sorry, you're so frustrated, et cetera. He would stop screaming much faster and then he would come to me and just cry and hug me. And then he would honestly say, I'm sorry. Now if I went after him or said, go to your room till you're done screaming, I like, I can't handle this. This is unacceptable.

[00:21:35] Jennifer Hayes: You need to go to your room if you're gonna scream, go to your room. He hated me for the rest of the day. He didn't trust me. The minute that I could be calm with him through his storm, he leaned on me and apologized to me, and the next time it would happen, he was much more capable of being like, I'm so mad, or I'm so frustrated.

[00:21:59] Jennifer Hayes: [00:22:00] He could speak to his emotion instead of just screaming and losing his mind. 

[00:22:05] Dori Durbin: And you said he was three? He was three. Wow. That's impressive. Yeah. In my parenting mind, if, I think if we made a mistake, Then that mistake is somehow non fixable or the fix is going to take a lot of work and effort.

[00:22:23] Dori Durbin: And so I think hearing that, something as simple as giving them that space to allow them to express themselves and to be seen and heard. But that could happen that quickly, that there was an adjustment. That's pretty impressive. 

[00:22:40] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. It can happen, and it depends on how old your child is, how long maybe that they've developed a mistrust or a fear of you if they get upset the shutdown might, it might take a lot longer for them to come out of that shell.

[00:22:56] Jennifer Hayes: Maybe you have a 13 year old who has been getting [00:23:00] threatened every time she is upset for 13 years. That's gonna take a while to repair that, but, you're going to see it in moments over time, you're gonna see that teenager come back to, you start relying on, you start being more honest with you when you start repairing it.

[00:23:21] Jennifer Hayes: You will start to get little snippets of that trust back over the time that you're repairing it. If your kids are really young, it's gonna happen really fast. 

[00:23:32] Dori Durbin: That's even more incentive to figure it out early. Yeah.

[00:23:35] Dori Durbin: And get that going 

[00:23:37] Dori Durbin: early on. Yeah. 'cause I think we're too much in the habit of fixing things after it's gotten bad, yeah. Instead of preventing it before it happens yeah. So what if you are a parent who has experienced that kind of trauma when you're child? And you're trying to break the habit or break that cycle from continuing, how do you maybe even first [00:24:00] recognize that you're that parent, and then secondly, how do you start to stop yourself from falling back into that routine?

[00:24:08] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah, so I think that pretty much everyone carries some kind of bias or judgment or shame. We all do. I don't know anyone who doesn't. So if you are someone like, I'm really proud of you, some enlightened being who can just walk around and float on air all the time, we all have. Experiences maybe microtraumas from our childhood, maybe really big traumas.

[00:24:36] Jennifer Hayes: Maybe we were abused, maybe we were emotionally abused, physically abused, et cetera. We all carry all of that with us. So if you are a parent, you have these things inside of you, you have these automatic responses to certain types of behaviors, things that trigger you, things that you find unacceptable, things that you find unbearable to allow in your [00:25:00] child.

[00:25:00] Jennifer Hayes: And so the work is one, accepting that about yourself. I had a major breakdown when I finally came to terms with, I've been working with children for, this many years and I'm just now figuring out how I am causing so much, how I've been causing so much harm. So the first step is really digging into that and finding where you are triggered the most and accepting.

[00:25:28] Jennifer Hayes: Those things about yourself. The second step is to then change your behavior. Before you can change your behavior. You've gotta also change how you feel about something. And so if you are someone who finds tantrums or big displays of emotion, unacceptable. The work is to learn how to accept those things and know that they are a part of life and that they are going to happen.

[00:25:56] Jennifer Hayes: If you keep fighting against something that is inevitable, [00:26:00] you're only gonna, you're only hurting yourself. You're only making things worse for yourself. If you can accept, that there's going to be conflict, there's going to be discourse, negotiation and discussion and compromise, and there are going to be things that the other person does that you don't like, you've gotta accept that about your child too. 

[00:26:23] Dori Durbin: So then what's the best way for parents to establish a healthy relationship with their kids.

[00:26:29] Dori Durbin: If 

[00:26:29] Jennifer Hayes: you want to 

[00:26:30] Jennifer Hayes: have a healthy relationship with them, if you want them to come to you with hard things when they're a teenager, if you want them to lean on you when they're a young adult and don't know how to navigate the world perfectly yet, if you want them to have self-confidence, if you want them to treat other people kindly and lovingly, especially when they're down and vulnerable, if you want your child to grow into these like resilient, happy human beings, like you've got to be one [00:27:00] yourself.

[00:27:00] Jennifer Hayes: And then you've gotta accept them for who they are.

[00:27:04] Jennifer Hayes: I think early in parenting life, I don't think that's even a consideration in your mind completely. I think as the kids get older, then you start to notice their interactions and you start to be aware of oh, I wonder when my kid did this, and so I think what you're saying right now is gold, because if you can place that in your mind when your child is very young, then it will make sense.

[00:27:29] Jennifer Hayes: Sense as they get older, like I said, I have college students and they're coming to me with things that I never dreamed that we would talk about, but I'm so grateful that they're talking to me about it. Yes. And I am not perfect. I'm not a even close to a perfect parent, but they have that trust with me and know that I'm gonna listen.

[00:27:48] Jennifer Hayes: It makes total sense to me. And they trust you. They trust you regardless of the mistakes you might have made. Because there's a, because you, again, you are going to mess up, you're going to make mistakes, you're [00:28:00] gonna yell, sometimes you're gonna have emotional outbursts.

[00:28:02] Jennifer Hayes: Sometimes the goal is to keep those absolutely to a minimum. And when they do happen, you are so intentional about explaining to your child that this is not your fault. The way I feel is not your fault. I'm having big emotions right now. I'm sorry I yelled at you. That's not okay. You do not deserve to be yelled at.

[00:28:23] Jennifer Hayes: There's a chance for you to repair in that direction, and that also teaches your child to apologize to you. That teaches your child to recognize when they're having big emotions and tell you that they're sorry or that they shouldn't have done that. 

[00:28:38] Dori Durbin: All of those are really important for them to see.

[00:28:41] Dori Durbin: You're not perfect and have you admit it yes. Yes. Are there ever common regrets that you hear from parents? I'm assuming yelling at kids when they really didn't need to is probably a top one. Yeah. Are there other things that parents typically regret doing later that they maybe didn't regret at the time?[00:29:00] 

[00:29:00] Jennifer Hayes: I think that there's these side comments. So parents tend to talk about children while they're in the room, as if they are not there. And this is one that I think a lot, it's I'm like, oh my gosh, I still have to catch myself doing it. Especially if they're very young. But talking about children as if they are not in the room to your friends or other adults, or to your spouse or whatever is so disrespectful.

[00:29:30] Jennifer Hayes: And your children hear that. I don't care if they're two years old. Like they hear that. And so changing our mindset from birth that when that baby is born, they are a whole worthy, autonomous human being separate from you. They need you. They rely on you their survival is dependent upon you, but they are a whole person who deserves to be spoken to kindly who deserves [00:30:00] respect, if my best friend was in the room and I had another friend, I wouldn't talk to my other friend about that person while they're standing right there.

[00:30:08] Jennifer Hayes: Just 'cause they're cooking dinner, not paying attention or whatever. So just because our children are over there playing, if they're in ear with an earshot of us, we should not be discussing them with other people and saying, oh yeah, they're doing this, but they're not doing that. Or they're in this developmental stage.

[00:30:24] Jennifer Hayes: Or, maybe they're, all, the hundreds of things, but these comments that we make about kids, about who they are, where they're at developmentally, what they are or aren't doing, all of that is judgment. And it's, and they take that in, they absorb that, and that's how they start to perceive themselves and create their self-worth.

[00:30:44] Jennifer Hayes: And that's one that I see a lot of. And that I've done a lot, especially as a nanny asking parents questions or telling parents about their day while they're still like standing there. Even if it was like one of [00:31:00] the parents was gone all day and the other parent was giving the lowdown of the blow ups that happened during the day and lack of nap and things.

[00:31:07] Jennifer Hayes: Tho those, even those kind of comments kids are taking to her is what you're saying? Yeah because it's a, it's like they're being watched and reported on. And even though it's your spouse, that should take place when you guys are alone and filling in your parenting partner on how the day went.

[00:31:28] Jennifer Hayes: I know that sounds impossible and we never have alone time and there's always a kid in the room and blah, blah, blah. But those things, you could either text them at the end of the day, a summary before they're on their way home so they know what they're walking into. But find a way to do that not in front of your children.

[00:31:45] Jennifer Hayes: Don't talk about your kids in front of your kids. Unless you're discussing with them about something, unless they are part of the conversation and you are having a family discussion, but discussing someone who is in the room with you no [00:32:00] matter what age is just so rude and undignified. Is there anything else that typically pops up? It is, shame is something that I think is like a second language to most of us using shame to teach even when we feel like we are just simply giving information. A lot of times it is shaming.

[00:32:28] Jennifer Hayes: And again, this is something, it's so second nature we don't even realize we're doing it. So if a child, let's see. I wanna use a different example because I wanna use an example that's not so obvious, like the grocery store tantrum. So say that you're at home, you have two children and one child hits the other and let's, it doesn't even matter what age they're, they could be tiny, they could be grade school[00:33:00] they could be teenagers.

[00:33:01] Jennifer Hayes: One of your children hits the other physically smacks, punches, whatever. They come running to you. There's been an incident and you say, usually the response to that is how dare you hit your sister? We do not hit in this family. Go to your room. I'll come talk to you later. There's some sort of instantaneous rejection, which immediately makes that person feel separate from the family.

[00:33:31] Jennifer Hayes: They're rejected, they're not good enough. And while yes, we want to be like, hitting is not okay in this house, like we do not hit people there's a way to do it. There's a way to set that boundary, remind them of that boundary and discuss it without causing shame about who they are as a person.

[00:33:47] Jennifer Hayes: So they come to you, someone has hit the other, and you can start a conversation. So curiosity is a tool that I train people on. When there's a conflict between your children, [00:34:00] even if it sounds horrific take a deep breath and be curious.

[00:34:04] Jennifer Hayes: Okay. Johnny, why did you hit Susie? She did this and she did that, and blah, blah, blah. It sounds like you were really frustrated. Yeah, I was. And maybe they blah, blah, blah. And then you say, okay, what's another way that we handle frustration in this home? Do we hit people? No. I could have told her with my words or whatever, depending on their age, they're gonna respond differently.

[00:34:30] Jennifer Hayes: And you talk them through it, you get curious, why did that happen? Why did you exhibit that behavior? Because then they're gonna grow up and leave the house, and they're gonna be able to do something dumb out in the world, and they're gonna be able to be like, oh that was gross.

[00:34:44] Jennifer Hayes: Instead of, yeah, I did that and I'm gonna do it again. And I have no other skills other than to hit you. Or I hit someone and I'm gonna go hide and not be friends with that person anymore because I feel so much shame that it's overwhelming. [00:35:00] Those are great examples.

[00:35:02] Jennifer Hayes: And so common. And it's so easy. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause usually you're say get out. Get out. Yes. You're trying to stop whatever's going on and make that person feel bad that they did it, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's say I'm listening and I'm trying to decide whether or not I would make a good one-on-one or group client for you.

[00:35:20] Dori Durbin: What what kind of clients are you looking for or who works best with you?

[00:35:25] Jennifer Hayes: I'm looking for parents of any age group parents and pre parents. That's something I always, I'm like, if you're planning, if you're family planning, you want to be a parent someday, this is something that you should dive into before the chaos starts.

[00:35:41] Jennifer Hayes: But if you are currently a parent and the key here is you are ready. To do the work. You are ready to dig into your own wounding, to dig into your own stuff, to admit where, admit your flaws, and do [00:36:00] the work to change your parenting behaviors and patterns and accept your child.

[00:36:05] Jennifer Hayes: That's who I'm looking for. Yeah, it's that simple. And then as far as one-on-one coaching versus group, is that just preference or do you have some sort of distinguisher between the two ? As of right now, I'm mostly doing one-on-one work. So I'm doing individuals or ideally parenting partners because it's so much more effective if both partners getting the coaching face-to-face and then applying it together.

[00:36:33] Jennifer Hayes: Right now we are just taking applicants of any parenting style and we're teaching the foundational relationship skills.

[00:36:43] Dori Durbin: Awesome.

[00:36:44] Dori Durbin: Yeah, and we should probably tell 'em about your podcast too, because they might wanna listen to a few episodes. So talk about your podcast too. 

[00:36:51] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah, so I'm sitting here in my podcast corner. I've got my little sign, the Relational Parenting Podcast. Most of the episodes are about an [00:37:00] hour long, and it's my dad and I discussing. The old way, the way I was raised, the way he raised children. And, the generational differences compared to the research we have now, the things that I've learned through my work with children and the Newark concepts. And it's really fun because he gets to tell me where he was coming from when he did a certain type of parenting thing or response.

[00:37:26] Jennifer Hayes: And he gets to see now what we know. And he's always oh, that makes so much more sense. Or, oh wait, we need to talk through that. 'cause that doesn't make sense to me. And I get to look back at my childhood and offer so much more grace and love and compassion to parents who were doing the best they could with the information they had.

[00:37:49] Jennifer Hayes: And we teach the relational parenting skills on the podcast as well 

[00:37:52] Dori Durbin: That's awesome. So you're literally retraining your dad for right. Future generations? 

[00:37:57] Jennifer Hayes: Yes. I'm training him to be [00:38:00] grandpa, yeah. We won't tell him though. It'll be our secret, right? Oh, he knows. He knows.

[00:38:05] Jennifer Hayes: He knows. Yeah. 

[00:38:07] Dori Durbin: Oh, I love it. Oh, where else can they find you if they wanna get ahold of you? Where should they look? 

[00:38:12] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah my website is www.jennyb.co and that's Jenny with an i e and B as in Bumblebee. So Jenny b.co. You can find me on Instagram, on LinkedIn. You can find the podcast and you can email me directly, jenny@jennyb.co.

[00:38:33] Jennifer Hayes: And all of those links are on the website. Fantastic. 

[00:38:37] Dori Durbin: We want them to find you because you have great, applicable information that would help parents, like we said, early before kids, or even after they've had kids, and start to realize maybe things aren't going as smooth as they want.

[00:38:51] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah, repair can happen at any age, like that's so key. It can happen at any age, like it's never too late.

[00:38:59] Dori Durbin: [00:39:00] That's fabulous. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jenny, for your time. I appreciate it. 

[00:39:04] Jennifer Hayes: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful.