[00:00:03.370] - Dori Durbin

Welcome to the Power of Kids Books, where we believe books are a catalyst to empower and inspire change. I'm your host, Dori Durbin. Like so many other lessons in life, an awareness and sense of body image is established at an early age. With so many conflicting social influences and opinions, it's really easy for body image to be shaped by comparison and dissatisfaction. Wouldn't it be amazing if we could help our kids set up an acceptance of their own unique and wondrous forms early in life? Today's guest has a passion for writing. She's an award winning author with over 15 books ranging from picture books to celebrity memoirs. As a former editor for People magazine and People.com and is currently the editor of The Plaid Horse magazine. Oh, and she just landed a book deal. Welcome to the show. Rennie Dyball.

[00:00:56.070] - Rennie Dyball

Thank you so much for having me. What a lovely intro.

[00:00:58.420] - Dori Durbin

Oh, thank you. You have done a lot. You deserve that intro, plus some.

[00:01:03.350] - Rennie Dyball

Well, thank you.

[00:01:05.430] - Dori Durbin

Now, I have to tell you, you have done something that most people dream of doing, which is not only writing a book, but writing a book. And 15 of them, actually, that has attracted the attention of a publisher. So let me just put that out there and we'll talk about that. But that's a major accomplishment. So congratulations on that.

[00:01:25.820] - Rennie Dyball

Thank you. Yeah, I work with a lot of aspiring authors, and I tell them all the time, breaking into this business is so hard. And even once you're in, once you're a published author, getting that next book is almost as hard. So it's a tough industry, but it's rewarding for sure.

[00:01:43.730] - Dori Durbin

That's amazing. And I had to laugh. I was reading your bio, and when I saw that you wrote horse books, I had to show this to my husband because my husband is desperately afraid of horses.

[00:01:55.530] - Rennie Dyball

Oh, no kidding.

[00:01:57.430] - Dori Durbin

And that's really what got you writing, right? I mean, that's a big piece of your writing career.

[00:02:02.410] - Rennie Dyball

Yeah, for sure. I started my career at Peoplemagazine and then People. And that was actually the part of my life that I took a break from horses and missed it terribly because I rode as a child and all through high school. And college and then working in Manhattan at People was forced to take a break between a starting salary and no car. Very limited access to horses in Manhattan. So when I eventually moved back to Maryland, where I'm from, and was able to restart riding again, which was it's an amazing thing to reconnect with a passion and not something that a lot of sports will allow into your thirty s and beyond. And when I made the move away from People, I was able to connect with Piper Clemos, The Plaid Horse, and I thought, oh, this is great. I'd love to write a blog post or two about horses and about returning to riding. And as it turned out, it was the next major part of my career because she actually wanted a co author to write a Horse book series. So my lesson from that, that I also tell my authors, is take every meeting, take every opportunity, because you never know.

[00:03:18.480] - Rennie Dyball

And combining the two things I love most outside of my family as a career is beyond rewarding and incredible, and I feel very lucky.

[00:03:28.970] - Dori Durbin

I love that connection, that advice, too, to take every meeting, because there's so many times where you're like, I don't really want to go. It's really not in my venue. It's sort of out there.

[00:03:39.570] - Rennie Dyball

And I did feel that way for a couple of blog posts. I don't know that I have time for this meeting. What if I hadn't taken the meeting? I mean, I shudder to think.

[00:03:47.830] - Dori Durbin

That's really amazing. I think the other cool thing about that is that you actually were writing for middle schoolers, which was probably something brand new, too.

[00:03:56.880] - Rennie Dyball

It was. And so was fiction, actually. I always wanted to write novels. To that point, I had only ghost written nonfiction, mostly for celebrities. It was sort of a side gig when I was at People. But Piper, the publisher of The Plaid Horse, wanted, like, a Saddle Club 2.0, a modern version of a series for middle grade readers. And I thought, I love that. I'd love to read that. I'd love to write that. Can I write that? I was very lucky to be in the right place at the right time, that she wanted someone to do this. And I actually took the advice of my very first co author, christian Siriano of Project Runway Fame, who know a real couture master in his own right. But I took his advice, which is, fake it till you make it. I've been writing my whole life. Have I written a novel? No. Have I written middle grade? No. But that doesn't mean I can't. So I faked it. So I said, okay, I'm a middle grade novelist now, threw myself into the research, which happens to be what I love. So that was fine and wrote a lot of drafts.

[00:05:02.520] - Rennie Dyball

It wasn't easy. But I think the fake it till you make it part is just very much your inner self and your inner critic. So after the fake it part, when she actually liked the first five chapters I sent, that was all the push I needed to think, okay, maybe I can really do this. And now that series is five books long, and we've been picked up by a major publisher, so we're being rereleased next fall with books six and seven to come.

[00:05:29.530] - Dori Durbin

Wow. Okay. You said so much in that whole part there. Let me go back just a second. Yeah, you make it part. The impostor syndrome is so huge, and it's not just, like, the author world. It's just a factor in people moving forward with making decisions. So when you get to the point where you're convincing yourself to fake it till you make it. It's really easy even then to pull back and not push through that. So how were you able to say, okay, first of all, I can work for People magazine because in my brain I'd be like, oh, I don't know, I need some practice before that. And then to take on something that you've never done before, how do you push yourself to that?

[00:06:12.860] - Rennie Dyball

Well, I think that first of all, I think imposter syndrome is something that we all struggle with and at all stages of our careers. Every new book deal I get, I have a day of I can't do this. They gave this to the wrong person. What are they thinking? It's just a part of it. And I think accepting that that's a part of it and not fighting against it makes it a little bit easier. As far as the pushing through goes, I think that we don't know when opportunities are going to arise, and so when they do, it's important to take them seriously and pay attention to their value. I got connected with an editor and a publisher who I thought wanted me to write a blog post. And she actually wanted me to write three books. So I looked at it like, yes, I'm scared. No, I don't think I can do it. I'm not sure how I'm going to go about it, but this opportunity may never come around again. So I just have to push through. And I think that it's not just an initial push, but it's to keep pushing. I still remember very clearly where I was at the Kentucky Horse Park at Pony finals, and I was in the same VIP tent as the publisher while she was reading those initial chapters, quite literally shaking in my boots, wondering what she would think.

[00:07:39.440] - Rennie Dyball

And when she told me she loved them, you expect that feeling to lift and you expect the impostor syndrome to go away, but it doesn't. It just takes new forms. I thought, oh great, she likes five chapters, how am I going to write the next twelve? So I think it's inviting that impostor syndrome into the room and it doesn't have to be your friend, but it's here, it's a part of it, and you just kind of push and work alongside it.

[00:08:05.680] - Dori Durbin

That is really great. I think you're right. I think ignoring it is probably just going to make it bigger or writing it.

[00:08:11.890] - Rennie Dyball

Yeah.

[00:08:13.630] - Dori Durbin

Okay, so let me jump from the horses to your picture book. And your picture book is called Devious for Bellies. What I love about this picture book is the fact that you have intentionally placed illustrations you've intentionally gone through and picked the alphabet to write little mantras about the body. And I think before we dig into all that, I had in my mind, how did you know that this book needed to be written? What was your inspiration for saying this book has to be out in the world.

[00:08:52.010] - Rennie Dyball

It was a very simple interaction with my then seven year old daughter. We were out grocery shopping. This was pre COVID times when you went to the grocery store once a week and a great song came on, and I shamelessly did a little dance on the cereal aisle. And my daughter looked at me with these big eyes, and she looked horrified. And I thought, oh, this is so funny. This is the first time I'm embarrassing her by dancing. But it actually turned out to be something much bigger than that, with the big eyes and the horrified look on her face, she said, Mommy, something is jiggling. As if that was the worst thing a body could do. And my knee jerk reaction was to be horrified myself. Like, oh, shoot. What's jiggling? And my kid noticed. How embarrassing. And then I went, Wait a minute, because it's always been super important to me. We all have body image issues, right? It's always been super important to me to kind of keep that to myself. I don't want my daughters to see it. My mom did the best she could in the time that she came up, but I knew from a very young age that she was always trying to fix her body.

[00:10:05.240] - Rennie Dyball

She was always trying to lose weight. She was dissatisfied. She worked out to change the way she looked. And as you well know, kids hear everything. So I was pretty sure that the idea of jiggling being so terrible was not a message that my seven year old got from me. So I thought, she's in second grade. Where did she get this from? Being a writer and a journalist. I went home, I dug into the research, and as it turns out, as early as preschool, the anti fat bias that's so pervasive in our culture has seeped in to our children. And as early as three years old, children perceive thin as good and fat as bad. And I went, oh, my God. The fact that she's seven and first said this, we're lucky. Like, this starts way sooner than I thought. And I immediately wrote down, J is for Jiggle. Bodies bounce when they move. When you're dancing, parts wiggle, get into the groove. And I thought, I'm going to do more of these little rhymes. I'm going to do one for each letter of the alphabet. And I called my agent and I was like, I don't know if this is going to work, but here's my idea.

[00:11:16.680] - Rennie Dyball

And she said, that is brilliant. Get off the phone with me. Go write the other 25. And they poured out of me. It was pretty amazing.

[00:11:26.330] - Dori Durbin

Okay, so again, lot to pack in there.

[00:11:29.870] - Rennie Dyball

Sorry. It's great.

[00:11:32.100] - Dori Durbin

I love this. So I think the first thing is your acknowledgment of what your child needed, and I think all parents want that, but you actually acted on it and came at a proactive angle for that. So my next thought was, what did your daughter think of your book? And did it surprise her that she actually inspired this and what does it mean to her?

[00:11:56.230] - Rennie Dyball

Yeah, well, I think what it first kicked off with both daughters, they were seven and four at the time, was I started to teach them that first of all, that fat is not an insult and fat is not a bad thing. I tried to take an organic moment to say we all have fat on our bodies. It's part of what makes up a human body. Some people have more fat than others. And within the world we live in, a lot of people falsely believe that fat is bad. And I just want you guys to know that that's not true. And I remember my older one saying, mommy, is this about what I said? And I said, yeah, and I'm so happy you said that to me, because this is an important thing for you to know. Your body is perfect and awesome just the way it is. So is yours. I told the other daughter, so is that kid down the street who looks really different from you. So we started the conversation there and then as far as the book goes, it's funny, I think my kids are my harshest critics because they hear a lot of drafts of a lot of books, and they get a little bored, to be honest with you.

[00:13:05.820] - Rennie Dyball

So the way they're my barometer now is if they get excited about an idea. And I read them a couple of the poems and they were excited, and I thought, okay, I've got something here. So now I would say the older one is a little embarrassed that I tell this story so often, but when it comes up, I thank her for what she said to me. And I tell her that kids have a lot to teach grown ups. And I never would have known that a seven year old would find jiggling problematic if it wasn't for what you said to me. So I'm so glad that you did. And I tell her, because of you, you inspired a book, you inspired a picture book. And I think it wasn't until I had a conference with her fourth grade teachers and they told me how proud she is of you and how often she talks about her mom being an author. And it just warms your heart because you don't always hear that from your kids, you hear it from other adults. So I would say net positive, even if maybe she'sick of hearing the grocery store story.

[00:14:11.230] - Dori Durbin

Think about as she gets older, too. And this is something obviously she's not going to appreciate now, but she gets older and realizes the impact that your book had on so many kids.

[00:14:22.770] - Rennie Dyball

I hope so, yeah.

[00:14:24.870] - Dori Durbin

And we were talking right before about how it's largely girls. Okay. But it's not just girls that struggle with this. And to think that at three they're already paying attention to that and judging themselves off of each other, or the standard that I mean, most three year olds can't articulate how they're feeling, but they can decide how they look. And that's really almost scary in a sense.

[00:14:53.810] - Rennie Dyball

Yeah, for sure. My thought was that perhaps we're starting these conversations too late. By the time we talk about body acceptance with older kids, they've had years of conditioning just from the society that we live in. So I thought, let's plant the seeds sooner and see what our kids can grow into. And it's like anything else with a social change. It's incremental. These are small changes. And I've already been accused my book's been out for one week. I've been accused of promoting childhood obesity and spreading deadly propaganda. Somebody said on Twitter, but I take the trolls as a sign that people are reading my book. And so great. I can handle the haters. I think this messaging is invaluable because my hope is that it will teach children to accept themselves exactly as they are and in turn, accept other people for who they are, no matter how different they may look. And I think most of us can agree that we all need a little more acceptance, and why not start that sooner with our kids?

[00:16:03.080] - Dori Durbin

Yeah, I think it makes a huge difference to start early because they grow up with it. It's not like they've had these ideas before that you're trying to reprogram, but you're giving them the tools early in life to be able to grow into those tools as they get older. And that's not going to come up again. But at least it's an open conversation between you and your child at that point.

[00:16:26.040] - Rennie Dyball

Yeah. And if you have this idea as a small child that no matter how big your belly is, it's okay just the way it is. And no matter how you look head to toe, ability, gender, any of it, maybe that'll stick and maybe that will be there to counter all the messaging that they get when they're older.

[00:16:45.010] - Dori Durbin

Now, your book, I saw the COVID I haven't seen the inside, and I'm dying to get my hands on it. The COVID has multiple characters, all different ages and sizes, and I have a feeling it just continues right into the book itself. So can you talk a little bit about that, too?

[00:17:01.700] - Rennie Dyball

Absolutely. While shape and size was the initial inspiration, the more I wrote, the more I realized that this was an opportunity to represent any child reading the book on the page. And my illustrator, NIA Sain did they did an incredible job. I mean, I think that you'd be hard pressed to find a child who doesn't identify with one of the characters in the book. And that's so important because as we've learned in publishing and in the world at large for a long time. We've underrepresented a lot of people, so I think it can only do good things for all children to see themselves on the pages.

[00:17:39.330] - Dori Durbin

And you intentionally placed interaction with the parents, too, and to how important it is not to just attract the kids and hold their attention, but also to attract the parents and have them want to be able to reread it. So how did you incorporate that?

[00:17:53.640] - Rennie Dyball

Yeah, I mean, the buyer and the reader of most picture books is an adult and the child is listening. So you really have two consumers or customers of the book in the child and in the adult. So I think throughout the book I tried to subtly speak to the adult reader, but particularly in the letter C, which if you're having me read a few of the letters, I was going to do A through E for you. But as you'll see in letter C, there's a message and there's a beautiful image for the child listening and looking at the book. But there's also a message very much to adults who, as you get older, your body image issues change and aging brings a whole other host of issues. So the letter C is my nod to the adult reader.

[00:18:42.950] - Dori Durbin

Awesome. Well, this is probably a perfect time to have you read your book.

[00:18:46.140] - Rennie Dyball

Sure. So obviously, B is for Bellies is a collection of 26 little mantras, so one for each letter of the alphabet. And I would love to read you A through E and I'll just give you a peek at the illustration. Obviously your listeners can't see it just yet, but just to give you a peek, I love it. A is for all the bodies you see. Some look like you and some look like me. B is for bellies. Some are round, others flatter. They each serve a purpose. The shape doesn't matter. C is for change. That's what bodies do. Years change your appearance, but you'll always be you. D is for diverse. All the shades of our skin. We respect other people and the bodies they're in. E is for everything more important than looks like taking adventures or getting lost in your books.

[00:19:48.170] - Dori Durbin

Oh, and if you could see the pictures, they are they're diverse characters, different environments. It's really cute. Oh, you did such a great job.

[00:19:57.680] - Rennie Dyball

Thank you. And as far as early literacy goes, I think our illustrator Mia did something really clever. They hid a lowercase letter on each page for the corresponding letter. So the A is for B is for the uppercase is really big and prominent on the page. And then when you've got slightly older readers, they can hunt for the hidden. Like for B is for bellies. The lowercase B is kind of burrowed in the sand, so it makes it interactive for the child as well.

[00:20:24.490] - Dori Durbin

That's awesome. And it can entertain the parent then, too.

[00:20:27.400] - Rennie Dyball

Exactly. A, there's little where's Waldo? Moment in there.

[00:20:30.490] - Dori Durbin

I love that. That's great. Okay, so we got this book. We have definite intention with what we want it to do. How do parents use your book with their kids? Like, what's your best practices in your own mind's eye?

[00:20:47.070] - Rennie Dyball

My hope and my suggestion would be that these little mantras can kick off conversations because I think from toddlerhood on, this is going to be a topic of discussion. And so I think it's a great jumping off point for parents to talk to kids about people who look different from them and the child's own body and maybe the way they see it or perhaps judge it as they get older. One of my early experiences was a kid at the pool told me when I was six years old that I had fat thighs, and ironically, I did not. I was a little string beat of a child. But that is something that truly stuck with me forever and informed a lot of dieting and disordered eating later in life. And so I think having these talking points early on, maybe some of that will be reduced. Maybe a child who would be inclined to make comments about other people's bodies or make mean comments. I mean, you see that in early elementary school quite a bit. So if these seeds are planted, maybe there'll be a little bit less of that and maybe we can set kids off on a better path than we had for ourselves.

[00:22:07.610] - Dori Durbin

I love that. That whole conversation piece, again, is just so key because if you can't have that door open, then you'll never know that these conversations need to happen.

[00:22:17.720] - Rennie Dyball

And like you were saying, sometimes kids don't have the words for this sort of thing and can't communicate about it. And that's the beauty of picture books to me. In addition to raising readers and getting kids excited about books, it's also a way to open doors and conversation that you wouldn't necessarily be able to otherwise.

[00:22:37.230] - Dori Durbin

Love that. So does this book give you ideas about a series from this book?

[00:22:43.490] - Rennie Dyball

So, a couple of things. My kids are both on swim team and we have a neighborhood magazine where I live, and they were kind enough to promote the book. So I actually did get a lot of very early, very positive feedback, and it was wonderful. The thing I kept hearing from adults was, I like this so much more than I thought I would. And I couldn't figure out what that meant at first. And then my husband said, and I hope he's right, he said, I think it means that people don't expect the nod to the reader and the adult as well. So I hope that's true. I also had kids at the pool tell me how much they liked it. Everybody's favorite letter in the book seems to be J is for Jiggle. Like, the kids think that's hilarious, and I think that's great. I think Jiggling should be hilarious and not something to be feared. As far as next steps, I actually have a book coming out. It'll probably be 2025. Picture books take a very long time, as you know, but the working title is Penelope and the Peculiar Praise. And it's about a cat who goes through her day being told she's beautiful, she's adorable, she's gorgeous, all while she is doing these great things with her day.

[00:24:00.540] - Rennie Dyball

She wakes mom up first thing in the morning, she catches the mouse in the hallway. She's accomplishing a lot as her day goes on, but all anybody wants to talk about is how cute she is. And that idea was certainly a spin off from this book. The idea that your worth has nothing to do with your looks and also culturally how particularly with girls, we comment on how they look. Oh, I love your dress. Oh, you're so cute. Oh, you're so pretty. And what that does is it teaches a child from an early age that that's their currency. That's what's important. You're cute, you're beautiful, you're so pretty. What the child's learning is that's what's important and that's why I matter and that's the value. So through this story about a cat, it took many, many edits to get it to the point that's at now I'm hoping to subtly send the message that the way you look is the least interesting thing about you and has nothing to do with your worth in hopefully a very funny and engaging storyline.

[00:25:08.930] - Dori Durbin

It sounds amazing and I have a feeling that as you work on it, you're probably and as you share your beards for Belly book, you're going to come across more topics to just continue this series. I'm not trying to jinx you, I'm just saying I think you're in a really great vein of focus and where you're reaching kids and it's just great.

[00:25:31.630] - Rennie Dyball

Thanks. Yeah, I hope so. It's a fine line because kids don't want to be preached to. An adult reading doesn't want to be preached to. But I do think there's a way to get messaging across in a picture book that is beautiful to look at, fun to read, engaging storylines. So it's very fulfilling and I hope you're right and I very much hope to stay in this vein.

[00:25:58.310] - Dori Durbin

That's awesome. Well, I will look forward to hearing that I'm right. How's that?

[00:26:03.330] - Rennie Dyball

I look forward to telling perfect, perfect.

[00:26:07.590] - Dori Durbin

Well, Rennie, where can they find you and find your yeah, yeah.

[00:26:12.690] - Rennie Dyball

The BS for Bellies is available anywhere that books are sold and you can read more about me. And there's links to different online retailers at my website, which is WW dot. Rennydyball.com.

[00:26:25.290] - Dori Durbin

Great. Any last thoughts that you would like to share with our listeners?

[00:26:30.750] - Rennie Dyball

Yeah, I think for aspiring authors, for parents, for anybody really, it's important to remember that for children, it's like books are currency. I had an editor at People magazine tell me years ago that ideas are currency. And I think that when you're an author and you're making career of this, that's absolutely true. But for kids, it's sort of the most important job you can have as an author to be writing for the very youngest readers and listeners. Because I think books are what turn children into readers. So I think it's a job to take very seriously, and it's so incredibly fulfilling. And no matter how hard the publishing industry is, I think that's what makes it worth it. We didn't get into this, and I won't for time purposes, but I have had many false starts in publishing and in children's books and you name it. Rejection is quite literally part of the game as a writer. So just like we allow impostor syndrome in the room, we need to allow rejection into the room. And when the right manuscript meets the right editor, magic can happen, and it's all worth it.

[00:27:46.050] - Dori Durbin

That's great advice. Well, we might have to do a follow up just on that.

[00:27:51.170] - Rennie Dyball

Happy to. Anytime.

[00:27:53.020] - Dori Durbin

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your your time today. I just appreciate the moments that we were able to encourage other people, and I just love your book.

[00:28:01.180] - Rennie Dyball

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

[00:28:03.440] - Dori Durbin

Absolutely. Thank you. Bye.