[00:00:00.890] - Dori Durbin
This is your warning. This podcast interview was a lot of fun. I want you to meet Lisa Jacovsky. She's a psychologist, a children's book author, and a podcaster. And her passion is equipping and helping autistic kids. I think you'll be really entertained and educated from this interview. Let's listen in.

[00:00:23.810] - Dori Durbin
Hello and welcome. Welcome to The Power of Kids Book Podcast, where we believe books are a catalyst for inspiring and empowering change. I'm your host, Dori Durbin. And today we have Lisa Jakovsky. She is a professor of psychology. She's also a podcaster, and on top of all that, she is also a children's book author. So welcome, Lisa.

[00:00:47.390] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you so much, Dori. I'm so glad to be here.

[00:00:50.690] - Dori Durbin
I am delighted to have you. I am so just honored to have another podcaster on this show.

[00:00:56.420] - Lisa Jacovsky
This is awesome. I know. I've been so excited.

[00:01:00.250] - Lisa Jacovsky
I thought it was so cool you started your own podcast.

[00:01:03.110] - Dori Durbin
Hey, it wasn't until after I was on yours.

[00:01:07.110] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you. I'm glad I could be helpful with that. Absolutely.

[00:01:11.750] - Dori Durbin
So let's start with your podcast, Lisa. We'll start there. Tell us a little bit about your podcast, about your no Limits podcast and kind of how you started that.

[00:01:23.210] - Lisa Jacovsky
So it's to interview individuals and organizations that are making a difference and put out their different information that families wouldn't know. And I kind of started I was literally doing an interview and afterwards chatting with the person that interviewed me. And she goes, you should start your own podcast. That's really where it came from. It had been in the back of my mind for a little bit, but I was just like, can I really do this? I don't like my voice over the phone. Am I really going to like doing this? But once she said it, I went and asked another author friend who has his own, and he said, you'd be great at it. And I kind of was just born from there.

[00:02:03.910] - Dori Durbin
I think we were chatting a little before. The experience of having your own podcast really opens up conversations that you never knew you could have.

[00:02:12.570] - Lisa Jacovsky
Exactly.

[00:02:13.230] - Lisa Jacovsky
And I've met so many amazing people, made so many amazing friends and networked. It's led to my new book series that's coming out in April. It's been such an incredible experience and it's really been a true blessing the people that I've been able to talk to and kind of get information out there. My Thomas The Train episode. I have a very special episode coming out Thursday with another extremely amazing professional woman. So you guys have to listen for that. And I have another very special episode coming out in May that has to do with old school show and a very amazing new school show. So you guys have to keep tuning, but lots of kind of geeking out type stuff.

[00:02:57.530] - Dori Durbin
That is awesome. I think you really branched out too, which is fun to watch.

[00:03:03.770] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you.
Oh, I'm so glad. And that's really because of my networking. It just kind of landed in my lap. Thomas. The train with Rick South and Craig Carlyle. Just from doing my podcast, I was totally shocked when one of my friends was like, you should talk to my friend Rick South. Really? And they're like, the nicest people in the world. I had the best time talking to him and Craig Carlyle. It was an amazing episode. And Craig Carlyle is the reason I interviewed the woman on Thursday who comes out. So you definitely got to wait and see that. But it's been a ride.

[00:03:41.190] - Dori Durbin
I feel like this is going to be a starstruck moment.

[00:03:45.830] - Lisa Jacovsky
Oh, my God. Probably just listening to her, my mouth dropped open. I was like, you are so inspiring. And then we were chitchatting after for like, 45 minutes. She is the nicest person, and she's so smart. She's super inspiring. She's a woman. She's a woman of color. And to be where she is is so incredible. You guys definitely have to listen for it. She's got some pretty big shows that she's working on, and where she's going is just I was just like, you're amazing.

[00:04:20.290] - Lisa Jacovsky
I want to talk to be friends with you after.

[00:04:25.650] - Lisa Jacovsky
Writing like you are one day.

[00:04:28.610] - Dori Durbin
How inspiring. And to think, would you have guessed that, being a professor of psychology, you would be doing that?

[00:04:36.250] - Lisa Jacovsky
No, not at all.

[00:04:38.040] - Lisa Jacovsky
And even just like, talking to Rick Saval and Craig Carlo, they're name dropping. It's thomas the train, which I absolutely loved. And we watch that now. And to see them put the character with autism on, and not only that, they're so authentic. Whatever character they put on, they use an individual who is the same culture, who has the same type of disability. It's just so inspiring to see all of that. And then listening to my guest on Thursday, what she's working on? We watch that here. And what she's worked on before this show. She's working on Nickelodeon. She's working on Paramount plus right now. She's worked for DreamWorks. I'm like, you did what? I am in the midst of award winning people who are just like, the most down to earth, nicest people who are changing film industry. And I'm like, you really took the time out to talk to me.

[00:05:38.030] - Dori Durbin
That's awesome. Well, okay. So we might need to back up for our listeners. Your focus is on autism and helping people to really understand autism in general. But you were starting off with families and parents at first, right?

[00:05:54.770] - Lisa Jacovsky
I was. So originally my podcast was to put out resources that families didn't know when it came to autism. And then I started interviewing individuals that were authors, and I kind of blossomed into something where it'd be authors who are making a difference, organizations who are making a difference. So a lot of the focus is autism. But I've had authors on, like yourself, who talked about RA. I had an author on who talked about her book with a dog that was a tripod, had three legs. I've got authors that came on that talked about ADHD, talked about trauma. I've had organizations come on that are making amazing differences. Rock autism, they're coming on a second time. I've had so many inspiring people on that it just kind of blossomed into more than autism. And I think that's just so incredible because even talking to Rick's Val and Craig Carlisle, they were saying how Amazon thought it was too much work to put a different character on, how Netflix thought it was too much work to put a different character on. But then you've got Mattel, who was like, yeah, we'll put a character on with that's in a wheelchair.

[00:07:07.220] - Lisa Jacovsky
We'll put a character on that's of a different culture, and we're going to have this autistic character who is played by a kid who has autism, but these other places won't do it. So branching out, showing all these different things, it's just hoping to inspire others and show them that there's really nothing wrong with being different. We're all really just the same and unique in different ways. That's all.

[00:07:31.170] - Dori Durbin
Yeah. I love that your focus originally was to inform parents or to help parents. Is that kind of where the focus was for your books, too?

[00:07:43.040] - Lisa Jacovsky
Absolutely. It really started off that way, and then I started realizing that kids that are like six, seven, eight years old can read this and it can open up that conversation. It can get them curious, and it can also get them to say, like, hey, she has autism. She's not talking to me, but who cares? Let me go find out how to talk to her anyways. And I've seen a lot of adults change their minds when it comes to autism. And I've had a lot of grandparents comments saying, you know, I read this book with my grandkid and helped me relate better to their friend that they have or to their cousin that has autism. So it really had started out to be that way, but it also blossomed into a little bit more than that, too, which it's been so special, and I feel so totally blessed to be able to do that and have this platform.

[00:08:35.830] - Dori Durbin
That's so cool. I am just so proud of you. That's awesome.

[00:08:40.650] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you.
Everything blowing up and crazy. There's so much coming.

[00:08:47.840] - Dori Durbin
That's great, though. Those opportunities are just there for you.

[00:08:52.250] - Lisa Jacovsky
I never expected this. It's really been incredible. Incredible. And whatever opportunity comes my way, I am just going to take advantage of because I am going to change that negative connotation around autism. We are going to make this world a lot better.

[00:09:07.090] - Dori Durbin
So you actually bring up a really interesting point. So what are the common misconceptions that parents or adults have about autism when they come to you or in general?

 [00:09:17.890] - Lisa Jacovsky
Oh, my gosh, so many, so the biggest one is that, oh, my gosh, they're never going to have a life. That's literally the first thing I always hear when I was working at an online event, and I'd be like, you know, I think they should go and get assessed and literally be like, oh, they'll never be able to have a life. But I've had individuals on the podcast that had autism, had their own podcast, have autism, have an adult book and children's book, and they have their master's degree, and they're teaching. And that's really why I wrote the books, because my character, Emma, even though she can't verbally talk, she can talk in other ways. She can read and write. And that's really what parents don't understand. Just because their child has autism doesn't mean they're limited. And that's why I called my podcast no Limits, because children are really limited just by their parents. They're not limited by whatever underlying thing they have going on. It's really just a different way to learn. And if you give them the correct tools, the correct techniques, they can go and play soccer, they can go to the pool, they can learn to bowl, they can go to the zoo, just like in my books.

 [00:10:27.930] - Lisa Jacovsky
And that's why each one's a different activity, too, to show families their child can do it, too. Why not let them try just like it was any other child? Maybe you put your child is neurotypical in soccer and they hate it. Same thing for your child with autism. It's trial and error figuring out what they like, but you got to give them the chance to do it.

 [00:10:50.670] - Dori Durbin
Okay, let's say I have a child who goes to soccer and they don't act like they want to do it, and I'm just playing the position of somebody who doesn't know any better.

 [00:11:02.610] - Lisa Jacovsky
Yeah, absolutely.

 [00:11:04.050] - Dori Durbin
Would I be able to tell that it's just an insecurity on their part, or is it not a good fit? How would you know the difference?

 [00:11:13.270] - Lisa Jacovsky
It really depends on their behavior, in all honesty. Some kids might tantrum and get really upset. They might stand on the side and not want to participate. They might come over, try to kick the ball, not kick it, and get really upset. If it's a child with autism, they might go over and try to kick it and miss the little one that I worked with. That actually inspired Emma. That was what she was doing. She was in soccer, and I was working with her on it, doing in home aba, and she just had a lot of difficulty following the prompts. She had a lot of difficulty with being able to process how to do soccer, but she could read and write, so there's little things like that, too. And most likely, if a child has autism, they're going to tell the coach. It really just comes down to observing and watching their behavior, which makes sense.

[00:12:10.590] - Dori Durbin
Yeah. In your two books. You actually kind of briefly mentioned this. You've got let's talk Going to the Zoo and let's talk Learning to bowl. So you actually did take those processes and kind of break them down and kind of walk the readers through that.

[00:12:27.070] - Lisa Jacovsky
Yeah, I'm so glad it came off that way, but yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to do, to show them, like, hey, they may encounter this when they go there, but that doesn't mean they can't actually do it. In the third book, she has difficulty understanding how to bowl, but once you use the technique of the communication system, she's totally fine. And sometimes that's all they really need is different techniques, and that's what adults have a really hard time understanding.

[00:12:56.050] - Dori Durbin
Yeah, I think we have this expectation. It's so funny because for ourselves, I'm not sure that we have that, but there's like this process that we think has to occur in order for them to have success later in life and in reality. I know for myself, if I look back and I look at all my biggest lessons were from my biggest mistakes and failures, they weren't from my biggest success.

 [00:13:24.030] - Lisa Jacovsky
Exactly. And that's what parents need to realize, that their children's autism too. Exact same thing. Their children just learn differently. And that's totally okay.

 [00:13:33.830] - Dori Durbin
Yeah. What got you started focusing on autism?

 [00:13:39.750] - Lisa Jacovsky
Well, I've been in the field of applied behavior analysis for almost nine years, and I really wanted to do something with psychology where I could observe, I could figure things out and help. And that's really how I fell into Aba, and it's really just kind of gone from there. Right now I got a new job and I'm not focusing on autism like I did. I'm focusing more on behavior. But it's really been awesome. And it's still observing, still trying to decrease behaviors and putting environmental techniques. And autism is definitely and behavior is definitely where I want to be. Even with school psychology, I love the whole mental health behavior connection, so I kind of literally just fell into it.

 [00:14:32.710] - Dori Durbin
Are you using your books with your clients? It kind of sound like maybe you.

[00:14:36.150] - Lisa Jacovsky
Work with early intervention. I would if I thought it would actually help. And it really was helping, so it really all depended. If I thought the family would be open to it, I have it free on Kindle. And I was always like, do the free. I don't want you to deal with paying and stuff. But it has helped a lot when I was working early intervention, and now I'm working in a school and trying to work on things differently. So we'll see how it goes at meetings in the future. But it was helping families in early intervention a lot.

[00:15:15.010] - Dori Durbin
Yeah, I would think having something there that was like a common language for the family, the family and the kids, especially if they have other kids, that would be something in my mind that if you have one child that's autistic and the rest aren't, how does that work and how do you process through that?

[00:15:32.170] - Lisa Jacovsky
I get those questions all the time. Like, how did this happen? Why do they have it and they don't? And a lot of times it's not really a simple answer, even in teaching. I get that question, too, from the students. I even had the question the other day. What do you mean by higher functioning? What does that look like? And I'm like, that's a very complicated question, but I try to make it simple so that kids can understand it. And it's really been awesome that parents and adults have really connected with it in a way that I didn't really expect them to. So it's been pretty awesome.

[00:16:09.750] - Dori Durbin
So you just mentioned kids in a difference between kids and parents. So is there a common misconception that kids have that's different than parents?

[00:16:18.090] - Lisa Jacovsky
Kids are more open than adults are when it comes to pretty much anything. And that's, I think, part of why it came out just like a voice of a kid. Because in the book, Harper is totally open to Emma and doesn't care. And a lot of times and that's why I want to work with kids and want to change their minds. Because if they can have that mindset at six, seven years old to be open and autism is positive, they're going to grow up to be those adults who have that mindset, too. It's harder to change an adult's mind, but it's also been easier than I thought it was going to be because of my books. So it's taking a while, but it's actually working and helping, and adults have to really be open to it. And that's really where the struggle comes from. Even in my new job, that's what I'm struggling with, with the teachers.

[00:17:14.810] - Dori Durbin
Yeah, I'm sure, because that's maybe for some of them, a new experience. It could be a coordination thing as far as, like, their schedule and their class schedule and how do I handle this? And be fair to everyone?

[00:18:07.800] - Lisa Jacovsky
Yeah, it's a lot of people's own culture. They didn't grow up with autism. They didn't grow up with a lot of positive resources. And that's really why I wanted to put these books out there and my podcast, because we need more positive resources out there. There's so much out there that's negative about autism and being different, having ADHD, having anxiety, and we need more positivity out there. We need more of those resources that show the beauty and being different. And that's really the struggle for a lot of adults, because they don't have that. They didn't grow up with that. And it takes time to get that stuff to them.

[00:18:50.470] - Dori Durbin
We're tough to change our minds, right? Adults.

[00:18:53.080] - Lisa Jacovsky
Yes. Absolutely. You're setting your mind weight setting your ways. But I worked with adults when I first got into the field, and I was very successful. So I'm very determined.

[00:19:05.250] - Lisa Jacovsky
I know I can do this.

[00:19:06.830] - Dori Durbin
You're the right girl for the job.

[00:19:08.170] - Lisa Jacovsky

Right. I'm like, I know I can do this. I'm already getting pushed back on my new job. I'm like, I'm going to get these teachers. I'm going to get them to do it has to be positive.

[00:19:19.930] - Dori Durbin
They don't have a chance, right?

 [00:19:22.290] - Lisa Jacovsky
I hope not. I'm hoping I'm going to do this.

[00:19:25.890] - Dori Durbin
It's all in a good way, though, right? It yeah. So I'm just wondering this is probably hard to tell, like, one thing, but if there was one thing that you wish people could understand about autism that you could make perfectly clear to people, what would that be?

 [00:19:45.720] - Lisa Jacovsky
It is just a different way to learn. That's it. It's just being wired differently. It just needs different techniques. That's it. There's nothing really that is so crazy. I hate using the word different, but nothing really so negatively different about it. It really is just a different wiring, different way to learn. That's it.

 [00:20:10.370] - Dori Durbin
Yeah. When you say that, it doesn't seem nearly as scary.

 [00:20:14.720] - Lisa Jacovsky
Right? Exactly. Oh, it makes me feel so good. That's what I'm going for. That's what I want people to see.

 [00:20:21.770] - Dori Durbin
Yeah, but that's true, though, learning something differently. I think about math. Both myself and my kids, we've had different backgrounds in math, and I watched my kids struggle, and I tried to teach them how to do the math the way that I knew how to do it, and that wasn't the way they were learning in school. And it resulted in frustration because I didn't know how to approach it. And I'm not sure that it's much different with autism and trying to teach skills or understand things that way either.

 [00:20:51.450] - Lisa Jacovsky
Right. 100%. Change is scary. Being different is scary. And when you grow up a certain way and you encounter something that you're not used to, it's going to bring on a lot of anxiety and a lot of stress. And that's why we need more positivity out there, more positive resources, not just for autism, but for anything that is different. It's differently abled, not disabled. So just bringing out those resources is one of the best things we can do.

 [00:21:23.300] - Dori Durbin
Speaking of, I still need you to read your story.

 [00:21:27.560] - Lisa Jacovsky
I've got a part of the story. I'll read a page or two and show you guys, and then everyone can check it out on Amazon.

 [00:21:36.750] - Dori Durbin
Perfect.

 [00:21:37.740] - Lisa Jacovsky
So this is book three. It came out in August. 

"Let's talk learning to bowl". 

After Coach Phil showed me how to throw the ball down the lane, I walked over to where Emma's side was with her note cards. I said, Coach Phil, Emma has autism and does not understand that we have to keep the mask on. If you show her these cards, she can read and understand a lot better than if you ask her to put the mask on. Wow, that is great to know. Thank you, Harper. I will use those from now on. Coach Phil smiled at Harper. Want me to read one more page?

 [00:22:12.070] - Dori Durbin
Yeah, I'm into it. Don't stop.

 [00:22:15.140] - Lisa Jacovsky
It was now Emma's turn to bowl. She immediately took her mask off and went to put her hand in the bowling ball. Coach Phil walked over to Emma with her note card. He took out the card that read masked on to Emma and she immediately put it on. Before she could put her hand in the ball, coach Phil took out the card that said Wait. Emma immediately stopped and allowed Coach Phil to take her hand and guide her to put the correct fingers in the ball. Then Coach Phil guided Emma to the lane and helped her to throw. The ball went immediately into the gutter, but that did not bother Emma. She jumped up and down with a big smile, flapping her hands. Coach Phil showed her the card that said High Five, and he was able to give her one.

 [00:22:58.560] - Dori Durbin
That's such a cool way to communicate and easy for the coach, right?

[00:23:04.600] - Lisa Jacovsky
So simple. Something simple as that can decrease behaviors tremendously and increase interactions. And I put it in the time of the pandemic with the mask because that was such a huge issue when we get to learn about what sensory Processing disorder is. So I'm extremely proud of that book.

[00:23:26.540] - Dori Durbin
So this is the third book. How many more do you have lined up?

[00:23:30.560] - Lisa Jacovsky
So, for this series, three more. Book four comes out in November of this year because it's about celebrating the holidays.

[00:23:38.700] - Dori Durbin
Nice.

[00:23:40.080] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you.

[00:23:41.440] - Dori Durbin
And do you have the topics for the other two?

[00:23:45.440] - Lisa Jacovsky
Oh, I do. Book four is Holidays, and it's really cool because I get to celebrate three, so I get to show more than Christmas. Book five is about going to dance class, and we get to encounter a new individual of a different culture, which I'm very excited about to put into my books, and we get to see how they struggle because of culture to understand and how Harper and Emma can help. And book six, I literally just finished writing yesterday.

That is about I know. I had, like, three pages left and I finally just finished it. And that is about sensory processing a little bit more. So we use social stories and that one. And it's about celebrating my favorite holiday, Halloween.

 [00:24:28.660] - Dori Durbin
Wow, those sound great.

[00:24:31.060] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you. I'm very excited.

[00:24:34.740] - Dori Durbin
I would be very excited. I'm excited to see what you put in, though.

 [00:24:38.660] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you. Got to keep up with my social media because I also have a spin off called Happy Thoughts More Seminary.

[00:24:46.760] - Lisa Jacovsky
Oh, wow.

[00:24:48.600] - Dori Durbin
Well, we will make sure. We include all your links in the description for this. For sure. Yeah. All right.

[00:24:55.080] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you. Lots and lots of cool stuff coming. I'm super excited.

[00:24:59.500] - Dori Durbin
Well, I think you should be, for sure.

[00:25:02.540] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you.

[00:25:03.900] - Dori Durbin
So we have just a couple of minutes left. I got to ask you my famous two last questions.

 [00:25:09.200] - Lisa Jacovsky
Absolutely.

 [00:25:10.240] - Dori Durbin
Lisa, what are two reasons that you think professionals should have their own kids books?

[00:25:16.080] - Lisa Jacovsky
Oh, my gosh. Definitely one, resource professionals are the best resource, and I think the other reason would be just the experience that we can bring. People trust professionals. They think they're experts, and I think if a professional writes a book, people are going to be more open to buying it. So being a resource and being someone that people trust, I think are honestly the best reasons for someone that's an expert to write a book. We need more of that. Right?

[00:25:47.530] - Dori Durbin
100%. I think you're right. And you are truly the best person right now for this subject that I know of, so that's awesome.

 [00:25:57.020] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you so much.

[00:25:59.180] - Dori Durbin
It is true. You can take something that seems so scary and complicated and make it simple and doable, and that's exactly what parents need.

[00:26:08.480] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you. Oh, my gosh.

[00:26:09.540] - Lisa Jacovsky
You literally just made my day. That is, like, the biggest compliment. Thank you so much, Dori.

 [00:26:15.050] - Dori Durbin
You are so welcome. Thank you. You're providing a resource, and parents are going to love that.

[00:26:21.540] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you.

[00:26:22.520] - Lisa Jacovsky
I hope so.

 [00:26:24.840] - Dori Durbin
Well, Lisa, I will include links, but where is the best place that they can find you?

[00:26:31.080] - Lisa Jacovsky
So my website is Lisajayauthor.com -- you can find me on there. All my social media links are on there. Facebook and Insta is books by Lisa Jacovsky. And I still have Twitter with everything going on with Twitter, but it is Lisa Child books. I am very interactive. I post probably every couple of days, and I have a lot of big things coming between my podcast. Brand new series coming out in April. I have a campaign coming out in April as well, so please keep up on my social media for some really amazing updates that are coming and some ways to kind of help give back for autism positivity, too.

 [00:27:12.900] - Dori Durbin
That's awesome. Well, I will definitely include those, but thank you so much for your time today.

 [00:27:18.830] - Lisa Jacovsky
Of course.

[00:27:19.580] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you so much. Dori, this was amazing.

 [00:27:22.680] - Lisa Jacovsky
Thank you so much for having me.

 [00:27:25.000] - Dori Durbin
Yes, 100%.