Dori Durbin: [00:00:00] Welcome to, that's Good Parenting, the podcast that searches for simple steps to reduce parent stress. I'm your host, Dory Drin, children's book illustrator, children's book coach, and podcaster. I help parents and family focused professionals turn their big emotions into concepts using language that kids.

Actually want to learn and use today's conversation fits beautifully into this mission. I'm joined by Kimberly Brown, a meditation teacher and author whose work focuses on compassion, kindness, and mindfulness, and it helps people feel more connected to themselves and each other. Kimberly, I'm really glad that you're here today.

Kimberly Brown: Do thank you so much for having me on the pod. This is really nice. 

Dori Durbin: Oh, I am so curious about how you got into this and why you do exactly what you do. Kimberly, can you share some of that with us? 

Kimberly Brown: Yes, I would love to. Well, what I do is I teach meditation, but specifically [00:01:00] meditations that develop compassion and loving kindness.

You know, those are, that's. Where my specialty is. And I, I teach these practices because I learned them and they really transformed my life. I I guess maybe 15 years ago or so, I was really struggling after the death of my mom. My mind was really, unsteady and my relationship with her had been very, it was terrible.

My mom was an alcoholic Tori, and it was not a good relationship. It was really tough. When she died, I, I sort of thought I, I'd be somewhat relieved, you know, because it was so hard for us. And of course, what I didn't know about was complicated grief, which is what arose for me. And it was really a tough time.

That's when I started to learn these practices, and what I realized after practicing them is not only did it help me [00:02:00] shift my relationship with myself from a position of Kim, why can't you feel differently? Kim, what's wrong with you, Kim? You know, oh, it's all in your head. Relax to, okay, you know, these hard things are happening.

How can I bring my attention to them with wisdom, with clarity? And doing so it affected the relationships I had with other people, with my family, with, you know, how I relate to them. And since that time, I, I then I did a lot of training, you know, in order to practice and learn. And I'm in the Buddhist tradition.

I, I've done a few, 200 hour, you know, teacher trainings and I work with students one-on-one. Many are parents and what I, what many struggle with is a real sense that it's all their fault and they're not too well doing good enough and what's wrong with [00:03:00] them and that it's, and what that true, what it looks like often with their families is a rigidity.

Often a sense of controllingness and a sense of deep dissatisfaction. And so part of these practices, what, I mean, they work, they really work. Um, you don't have to be abused to try them. And they really can help us reconnect and forgive ourselves for our mistakes and open ourselves up to when we're struggling so that we can soften for each other too.

Dori Durbin: I love it. I, you know, it's interesting that you have had that experience and made those connections that the parents who are really struggling with control are really struggling internally. Because I think a lot of times it does, it feels like, especially in parenting, like you should have all the answers.

You should be able to, uh, control the outcome of what other people do, and it, it just puts that [00:04:00] much more guilt on you, and it makes it a big struggle for people. Is that what you're finding? 

Kimberly Brown: Exactly. And then it's, you know, then there's becomes like a war in yourself and then a war with your family.

And and that just causes most of us, you know, just to get tighter. Well, I'm just gonna really buckle down now. Right. And it really becomes such an adversarial thing. And from the language my tradition would use is we are suffering. It's not, oh, mom's being a jerk. It's mom is really suffering. And when you can see that, then you can attend to your suffering.

And in doing so, you know, you can act a little more wisely. In this situation, you can let go of a lot of, a lot of those ideas you might have about yourself and others. 

Dori Durbin: It's really interesting as you're saying that I can hear some of our listeners already applying some resistance. Like, you know, I know I'm stressed, I [00:05:00] just, I don't know where to begin and I don't have time to shower, much less meditate for 30 minutes a day.

So, Kimberly, you know, what's what. Yes. How do we help parents in that situation? 

Kimberly Brown: Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: And what does meditating really look like? 

Kimberly Brown: Beautiful. And yes, everybody listening out there that's hearing that, you know, and, and thinking that I hear you, Dory hears you, you know, and we do know that you're stressed, you don't have a lot of time and it's so hard, you know, and what I'm talking about is not necessarily sitting down for 30 minutes saying, ohm, what I'm saying is using your attention.

Your kindness that you're already using and giving all day long and taking moments to give it to yourself. So it might, you know, what it first is, is a sense of mindfulness, so you know what you're doing. You know when you walk in the kitchen and you look around and [00:06:00] all you see are the negative things, why wasn't that dish put away?

What is going on here? And off your mind goes, that's when you wanna stop. You wanna pause, you might wanna say, oh wow, that's a signal. I'm upset. That's a signal that I'm struggling. I'm gonna just put my hand on my heart and breathe 'cause everything's okay. And that is a shift and that's what we're, we're talking about in our lives.

You know, this deep dissatisfaction that we're walking around with, it's hurting us and it's hurting our families. And so being able to notice what you're doing, it doesn't take lots of time. It just takes paying a little bit of attention 

Dori Durbin: now, putting their hand on their heart. What does that do for them?

Kimberly Brown: Well, what it says is, Hey, I'm not alone. I'm here for me. I am here for me. When I do that, I'm like, Kim, yep. Here I am. [00:07:00] I have support. That support is my own inner resources that are always available. My wisdom, my kindness that sometimes I really forget about. I get all lost in the details of life, but I can come back to them pretty easily and everyone listening can't.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. So it's about talking to yourself as well as it positively as well. 

Kimberly Brown: Yes, yes. With deep kindness. Yeah. Gentleness. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. So in my work as a children's book illustrator and coach, I see all the time how kids need to feel safe through caring language, especially if it's modeled for them. So from your perspective, how does a parent's interstate directly affect a child's nervous system and, um, and what shifts when parents begin practicing that compassion towards themselves?

Kimberly Brown: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you're talking about co-regulation too, you know, and what [00:08:00] shifts is, I mean, when each one, I often say to families, I work with people one-on-one, but often I've worked with a group like they'll a mom, a dad, maybe some their aunts, they'll come and we'll do a zoom, we'll do zoom meetings and practice together.

And I often say if. If each of us take care of our own feelings, we're taking care of each other. Okay? So when I take care of my feelings, I am taking care of my kids. When I teach them to teach, take care of their feelings, they're taking care of me or all of us, you know, but it gets very mixed up in families, you know, we're each trying to fix each other.

So the first thing that we all learn is, oh, I have the capacity to take care of my own feelings. When I see my parent do it, I am learning. That's how it's done. They're taking care of their feelings and their the parent's [00:09:00] role. Part of it is to help the child hold their own feelings. That's really hard.

It's hard to watch your child suffer when they're struggling upset, right? And so that's when you get parents trying to fix it. Change it. Oh no, you're not that upset. Or, oh honey, don't worry about that. Right. So a parent that can say to themselves, oh, I'm feeling upset, man, I'm a little angry today. It's okay.

And also say that to their kid. Oh, I see, I see. You're really bad. It's okay. Let's sit down. It's okay to have those feelings. So you know, it's, um. You've mentioned it's mirroring, it's, it's, um, co-regulating and it's interdependent is the word I'm searching for. You know, you just start to it's hard to say which is where it's coming from in a certain sense that we're both doing it for each other.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah. It really doesn't stand alone. You can't have just one family member who's super [00:10:00] stressed out and not affect the whole entire family member. 

Kimberly Brown: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Tori. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. 

Kimberly Brown: Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: So what about for the parents who have kids who are worried they're anxious, overwhelmed, maybe they're emotionally very strong, you know, high intensity.

What is there, is there, is there a way, maybe that's the real question. Is there a way to make it feel less of like another thing that they have to do and more of like a, a reward, a benefit to them? Yeah. 

Kimberly Brown: Yeah. 

Dori Durbin: How do 

Kimberly Brown: you do that? I mean, yeah. I mean, part of it, it, a part of what I'm suggesting here is not, oh, let's all meditate.

Dori Durbin: Mm-hmm. 

Kimberly Brown: It's, oh, let's learn how to direct our attention in ways that are useful to us. Let's learn how to develop love and patience and wisdom so that we make good decisions for ourselves and each other. Meditation is one tool, but there are other ways to do it. I mean. A simple thing is to put your devices away and go for a [00:11:00] walk as a family, that seems so silly, but you are actually having this unmediated relationship.

It's very real out in the world with each other. And that in itself is a, you know, is healing and it directs your attention in a certain way, you know? So those moments, you know, just sitting and, Hey, let's just have a cup of tea, turn the TV off. Leave your phone upstairs and let's just, you know, sit here and, and be together.

And if you have kids who are anxious or if you're anxious, you know, the one of the ways to work with anxiety is to pay attention to it. Hey, let's sit down. Let's have a cup of tea. Where are you feeling? All this anxiety. Okay. Wow. It's in your belly. It's in your hands. It's okay. Let's breathe. Here it is.

It will come, it will go here. It's 

Dori Durbin: so you're identifying what the feeling is and you're [00:12:00] identifying where it's affecting the body and then trying to relax that area, or at least calm it down physically 

Kimberly Brown: from, from in my tradition, we are not trying to do anything with it. Okay. It is more like a welcoming practice, which paradoxically.

Usually calms it, but it is not like I'm gonna identify this problem. I'm gonna look at it and I'm gonna fix it. It's actually, I really hope for all of my students, everybody listening, you are not a problem and you don't need to be fixed. You're a human being. You have struggles, you have emotions. And one way that can be useful to work with emotions is to bring them closer, to welcome them, to say, oh yeah, I have anxiety right now.

Does not feel good. It's okay to be here. Why is it okay to be here, Dory? Because it's gonna come and go. They all do. You know? That's the wisdom. So you start to also, you [00:13:00] know, in, you are starting to tolerate the feelings more too. In doing so, they're not so, oh, I can't sit with this. It's horrible. Which is how it feels if you're not used to it, right?

You're pushing it away. But when you sit with them and you say, oh, well this is part of me. This is part of Kim. Okay, here it is. I don't like it so much, but it's mine and it's okay. And it comes and goes. 

Dori Durbin: Interesting. I've heard a lot of athletes use meditation before events, and, and I was just thinking, I mean, myself, I, I, am I not a swimmer, but I have done triathlons and the swim is my scariest part of my whole entire event.

And it's reasonable because there's lots of thrashing and hitting and bumping in within the water. And I thought about, you know, I, I was gonna not do this, Kimberly, but I'm gonna do this. I was thinking to myself, well, how do I use [00:14:00] something like that to calm myself down? Because what I wanna do is I wanna fix, like I want this to go away.

So how does accepting it I, that's a hard concept to think of. Accepting it as being something that actually is going to work to calm me down. 

Kimberly Brown: Yep. Yep. It's interesting 'cause it does feel paradoxical somehow, like, well, if I accept it, well I'm just gonna be flooded with it. 

Dori Durbin: Be worse. Right? 

Kimberly Brown: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. I had a wonderful teacher who used to say, awareness is the same as letting go. 

Dori Durbin: Hmm. 

Kimberly Brown: And it's speaking to that, that you show up for your race and you're, you're scared. You start to bring your attention to what fear is for you. It might be a racing heartbeat, and it might be thoughts of disaster, and it might be your hand sweating and that awareness, bringing that attention to what fear is, it loosens it.

It doesn't [00:15:00] usually make it vanish. You know that there'll still be a residual, but. What it does is allow more than fear to be there. So, you know, you've talked about your experience and you know, anybody listening has had stress and worry and it can get so narrow. And once it does, you're really stuck.

It's terrible. It's terrible feeling a mind can't see anything else and you're really not free. So the practice of saying, oh my gosh, I'm having fear. I'm going to pay attention to it. Which is different than having fear, usually fear, anxiety, stress. It's like you can see it almost like a boulder rolling off a mountain like we start to, right?

It gets so big and that How is it getting big? Well, it's getting big 'cause we're adding thoughts to it. We're starting to believe it. Oh my God, what if that happened? Oh, and then that, and then, oh my God, [00:16:00] right? We're slowing down. We're saying, okay, yeah, it's happening and we're turning our attention. What is happening?

Not I'm adding to it. I'm believing it. I'm not believing what is happening. I'm breathing into my belly. 'cause that's where it's tight. Breathing into my hands. I might say to myself, Hey, may I be safe? May I be gentle with myself right now. Putting that hand on your heart, I'm here for me. I'm not alone. And.

Something difficult might happen and I trust myself that if it does, I'm gonna meet it with wisdom and, and you know, my best efforts. 

Dori Durbin: Hmm. This is such a different approach, honestly. Like it's even just listening to you discuss it. I'm like, she's so calm, she's so relaxed, she's confident. And I think when you get into that situation, if you are not doing that, it's the complete opposite.

It's [00:17:00] just, you know, like you said, your heart's racing, your hands are sweating, your body is tingling, your breathing is erratic, and you just can't think straight. And so, yeah, just hearing you work through it, it's, it's completely different. Complete opposite. 

Kimberly Brown: Yeah. And yet it's, it's a similar outcome. And you can see this with kids, you know, if you ever, you know, you know you have children, you work, this is your specialty.

There's an idea that we can either like. Just turn it all off, right? I'm having a fear. I'm just gonna get rid of it. Or I can like beat myself up, you know, as a punitive idea. You know, like, well just if you go sit in the corner enough, you're gonna stop that feeling or that behavior, you know? And what it does is just makes us more agitated and less that's where we start to get all the self-criticism.

The judgment, the blame, the, oh, it must be something wrong with me. But this is saying, well, no, [00:18:00] nothing's ever wrong with me. I have feelings that are really painful. I didn't put them there and their mind and I can learn to work with them and it with kindness, just as I would work with a 3-year-old who's very upset, you know, you don't scream at them, it doesn't help you, right?

You hold their hand, you. Give them boundaries, all the things, and you're, you're turning that to yourself as an adult in the same way. 

Dori Durbin: You're bringing up some really interesting concepts in my mind. Some things that I feel like listeners should already know or would say they already know. But I'm curious from your perspective, especially with the, the education that you've gotten.

When we talk about kindness and compassion for ourselves, I always think of things as. You know, oh, it's, it's okay. It's fine. But I feel like there's a deeper meaning than, than what I'm even coming through. So can you talk a little bit about that? 

Kimberly Brown: Absolutely. And there is, I believe there is [00:19:00] too Dory. Um, you know, of course kindness is, as you described, you know, not being cruel to yourself and giving yourself a break.

But also what I'm suggesting is turning your attention to your pain. To your struggles, to your stress, to your what? In my tradition would say suffering and we are all walking around all the time with a lot of suffering. We're also walking around with a lot of joy and wonder that's happening too.

But in our culture, we really have put the suffering on the shelf and either we're embarrassed to talk about it. Or we don't know how to deal with it. We don't want it. Like I said, we get at at odds with it, but real compassion is saying, I am struggling so much right now and I'm going to do my best to alleviate that.

And compassion [00:20:00] is, oh, Dory. I can feel you're really struggling right now and it's okay. I can, I don't have to do anything to like fix you right now. I can just. Be as present as possible and feel that, and they, the brain scientists have done a lot of research on these qualities and they find that empathy is kind of the first step in compassion.

And that almost all of us, we actually are pretty, em, you know, empathic. And when we see someone, for example, on the street in distress we actually feel that most of us. Now what a lot of us don't have is compassion, which is kind of the next piece, which is, oh, look at that struggle with this person.

How, is there a way I can reach out? Is there a way I can not look away? Is there a way I can, you know, even just wish them well? But for most of us, we didn't learn that piece. We are overwhelmed with the empathy [00:21:00] and so we close down, keep walking, and we do that to ourselves or, and our kids. You know, it's too much.

Hmm. So this, these practices really expand our capacity to hold that. And as you can guess, it expands our capacity to hold joy, to hold, you know, all the other things too. It, it expands our capacity as you. 

Dori Durbin: That's interesting. So what you're saying is, by recognizing and accepting our suffering, we actually open the door up to more joy.

Kimberly Brown: Yes. Beautifully said, Tori. Yeah. Oh, we actually do, because we're not cutting off a whole bunch of our experience, you know? Mm-hmm. 

Dori Durbin: Interesting, interesting. That's okay. This is a totally different version. I do. Which I knew. I knew when I would talk to you, my mind would be blown, and it's definitely getting blown.

Awesome. And I, I love this because like the very same things that you're talking about, the compassion, the kindness. [00:22:00] Conversation. What you're saying is a lot of what we try to do with the children's books, but you have books, you have your own books. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about those too and, and how maybe parents can use your books.

Kimberly Brown: Oh, beautiful. Well, you know, I have three books. The and the most recent one really it's called Happy Relationships. And it really, there are practices in there specifically for parents. All three of my books, happy relationships, navigating Grief and Loss, and steady, calm and Brave. All of them are very practice-based and they have a lot of personal stories from myself and my students.

So there, I believe most people can really relate to that. And what I have found, especially with Family Story, is there is such shame and embarrassment to say, Hey, my daughter is really struggling right now. Oh, my husband lost his job. Whatever it [00:23:00] is, it it, it's terrible. And so I hope for my work, for us to be able to be more honest with ourselves, with each other about what we're going through in order, because everybody is.

'cause every single person is, and how can we support ourselves and each other and the wider, you know, conversation. All of the books have practices and exercises so that you can use them to, you know, to settle yourself, to reconnect with yourself. What I hope for all of your listeners to remember is you all have all of these qualities.

They're already here. You're lacking nothing. And, you know, you can come back again and again, just pretty easily to your love, your kindness, and um, feel a little bit more steady, you know, in any moment. 

Dori Durbin: Love that. Love [00:24:00] that. Well, one of the things that I definitely want people to experience is what it would feel like to go through a meditation.

And so Kimberly has, I'm sure, various links. I told her a minute and I partly, 'cause if you're listening to this and you're driving, I don't want you falling asleep. But I also, if you love it, you can also reach out to Kimberly. So Kimberly, what would it be like to experience a minute of meditation with you?

Kimberly Brown: Thank you. Okay, everybody listening as you said, except for those of you driving in a car. Everybody else, if you are in a spot where you can close your eyes for one minute, I'd like you to do that. Just close your eyes, put your hand on your heart, and as you do that, you're going to notice that your body's breathing.

You're going to feel it.

Don't pick up your phone. Don't text or email. [00:25:00] Just let yourself be here. Got about 40 more seconds, and during this time, I would like you to say to yourself, may I be gentle with myself? May I be happy and at ease? May I be gentle with myself? May I be happy and at ease? May I be gentle with myself, may I be happy and at ease?

Dori Durbin: Just saying that a few times for, uh, 

Kimberly Brown: silently.[00:26:00]

And those of you who are parents, I'd like you to bring your kids in here on your heart just for this minute. Just saying to them, may I be gentle with you? May we be happy and at ease. May I be gentle with you. May we be happy and at ease if you don't have children, just your family bringing in your close loved ones.

May I be gentle with you? May we be happy and at ease.

Thanking yourself for taking this moment. This is a minute.

Dori Durbin: Wow. I don't know about anybody else who is listening, but when you started with [00:27:00] the phrasing, I wasn't really, um, working with my heart rate and then all of a sudden my heart rate was at it. My breath and my heart rate were going with your. Your phrases. 

Kimberly Brown: Oh. 

Dori Durbin: And so it was really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the calm.

The calm. I haven't felt that calm since I probably fell asleep last night. Um, that is just overwhelming. That's amazing. I really love 

Kimberly Brown: that. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. And so when you do meditations, really your goal is to just feel what you're feeling right in that moment and to just see your body working. 

Kimberly Brown: Correct. Yep. Just to be with whatever's arising, you know?

We're usually trying to fix things, change things, judge things, and it takes a little practice to start to notice how that operates. Uh, and it's possible to let go of it. It just for this minute, it doesn't mean like, oh, Kim, I'm never gonna make plans. I'm gonna be a hippie now. That's not what we're [00:28:00] saying.

You know, we're saying take a break. Take a break, you'll, you'll be able to meet your challenges with a bit more clarity when you can take a break and rest your mind for a bit. 

Dori Durbin: That's very powerful. Very powerful. Okay, Kim, before our last question, question, I know that our listeners are probably saying, okay, Dory, quit talking.

We wanna know how, how we can work with Kim. Uh, how is it that they can work with you? What is it that you can do for them? 

Kimberly Brown: Oh, well, anyone listening, I ha You can go to my website, meditation with heart.com. Uh, if I give I have a lot of private students, you know, I see them once a week, once every other week.

I help them work with their feelings and teach them these practices to develop these qualities, these skills of wisdom and love. So there's one way you can work with me. You can also just sign up for my newsletter. I have a weekly newsletter. It has recordings every week, so you can [00:29:00] practice with me if you'd like to do that.

Uh, you can look at my books and anyone who's listening, you can email me if you have questions. You know, that's my job to help people learn to meditate, and I'm, I'm glad to answer your questions or, you know, give you directions. There are many resources out there to help you work with your mind.

Dori Durbin: Awesome. Thank you for that. And I, you know, I always like to end the podcast with one step that parents can take, um, right after they get off the podcast and they're excited about this concept. What is something they can do right away that's going to help them throughout their day? 

Kimberly Brown: Yeah. You know, one thing that really helps families is to have a sense of appreciation and you know, our lives are so stressful, Dory, and, I remember going to a Costco for the first time a decade ago, and I mean, my God, it's amazing. The abundance. Like can you imagine a century ago people seeing that? They would just [00:30:00] think we were all kings, right? Anyway, I remember going in and everyone was dissatisfied, arguing and stressed out and worried, and I just thought, this is crazy, right?

We, we've lost an appreciation for what we have, so. Anyone listening, A very simple and easy thing to do when we this ends is to start to think about what you appreciate in your life. It doesn't mean you don't have challenges. Those will still be there, but you need to see both your resources and your difficulties.

Otherwise it gets overwhelming and you're in despair, so it might look like, wow, I appreciate that. Our house is nice and warm, and it's a cold winter. I appreciate that. My daughter is so good at cooking and she does it every day. I appreciate that. My son is so funny. I appre whatever it is. And again, this doesn't negate problems, but it helps you [00:31:00] hold both and that's where the wisdom arises.

Dori Durbin: That's awesome. What a great suggestion too. Something that we probably, like you said, we just take it for granted. We just don't think about it through our days. So yes, thank you so much, Kimberly, for sharing not only your story and and why you love what you do, but also for giving us so many insights that are so unique and different today.

I really appreciate it. 

Kimberly Brown: Thank you, Dory. I love what you do and many blessings for this podcast and all your work. 

Dori Durbin: Thank you. Well, listeners, I encourage you to take one small piece of today and give it a try. You don't have to do everything, and you've already been given a great first step. So I hope and pray that you can end your day saying that.

That was good parenting.