Dori Durbin: Welcome to, that's Good Parenting, the podcast where we search for simple steps to reduce parenting stress. I'm your host, Dori Durbin. Children's book author, illustrator book coach. I love to help experts, educators, coaches, kids size their big ideas into meaningful stories that families can grow with.

But today. Today I'm joined by someone who understands the very complex life of family from every angle. Mindy Green is a certified parent coach, as well as a parent and a grandparent who has herself experience the joys and challenges of raising kids. Mindy took her own experiences and expertise and kid sized them into a children's picture book Sammy's super stretchy shoelaces, and I was the lucky one who got to coach and illustrate her book.

So today's conversation is a super special one. So welcome Mindy. 

Mindy Green: Hi Dori. So glad to be back with you. 

Dori Durbin: I'm a little biased, but I adore your book [00:01:00] and the concept and so I'm really excited to share this with our listeners. I know, Mindy, that every powerful story has a reason for its beginning.

And I know that Sammy's super stretchy shoe laces was one that really came from your heart from your perspective as a parent, as a grandparent and as a coach. So what made you think that there needs to be this specific children's book in the world? 

Mindy Green: Well, there are a couple of reasons and I'll, I'll say the biggest reason though is uh, my grandson, my oldest grandson was having some issues with his own shoe laces, and each time he would tie them, he would end up in tears because they would just seem like they were getting longer and longer, they were stretching out.

And so he was so frustrated and we ended up having to triple not them. Just, you know, so that they would, so they would stay tied. And so he and I came up with this idea and we thought that would make a really fun story. So he, he [00:02:00] dictated to me and I typed it out and then, uh, and then he illustrated the book and he still has that today.

But then. I was like, you know what? I bet other kids would really resonate with this. And so that's when we decided that I would explore my options and I came across you. 

Dori Durbin: I was so lucky to be able to come across you with the same idea. It was awesome. And Kai, your grandson, is just. Delightful and creative, and I love that this story was something that he helped craft.

I think that gives it just even more of a, an authenticity of the frustration that kids go through learning to tie their shoes, much less having shoestrings that won't stay tied after they tie them. Uh, so 

Mindy Green: absolutely yes. 

Dori Durbin: I thought it was neat too, and I don't know if you ever connected this, but the idea of.

The stretchiness with the emotional flexibility and the physical stretchiness of [00:03:00] shoestrings. I thought that was a really cool parallel that whether it was intentional or not, it is definitely there in the book. 

Mindy Green: I, and you know, I had thought about it at different times and I don't know that I've really ever articulated it as well as you just did because it's really our patients is stretched, you know, and, and we'll say, or it's wearing thin.

And so those are phrases. That we have about patients and we don't often think about it. And so you're right that the stretchy shoelaces are really, um, a great analogy for what happens with us when we get really frustrated and, you know, and we're having to learn patience and how to deal with these big emotions that really can feel as, feel like they're stretching us as people.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. I, I love the other thing that you did with the story that not very many people choose to do with kids' books, and that's embed kind of a mystery into the story itself. So you have, you have his frustration growing, but there's also this mystery that's getting more [00:04:00] complex and, and. And causing the frustration to even develop even further.

Do you wanna talk just a little bit, but don't give it away? Just a little bit about it. 

Mindy Green: Yeah. No, and I won't give it away, but I'll say that this is, this is my spin on it because I really love mystery books and I always have, ever since I was very young, and so I thought, you know, why don't we make it a little bit of an, a little bit more interesting?

And so. And help us like to figure out like the problem solving. And so the mystery is, is a bit like problem solving, right? Because you're gathering clues and trying to figure out like why this is happening. And along with that then is she, as the curiosity of Sammy Grows. And as I was talking to Kai about it, you know, one of the things that really struck us is that this is a really great way then to, to learn how to be more patient.

And to get curious about like, well, why is this happening and what can I do differently? And so that's where the, the big [00:05:00] surprise comes at the end, which is just like a fun little take on what what could be happening. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. And I love, so the way I look at this, and maybe you can, revise this for me if I'm not hitting it but I look at this as, you must have clients who have kids who experience high levels of frustration that.

Parents sort of don't know what to do. Is that true? 

Mindy Green: It is. Yes. And I, I'm thinking back to when I, you know, my kids are all young adults now, and I'm thinking back to how each one of them, like, I didn't know if they were ever gonna learn how to tie their shoes. And so, and as a parent, you go through it and you go through it, and you go through it, and you just think, well, at some point they're gonna get this.

But then there's that little niggle that you have of doubt and you're like, is this really gonna happen? And you know, and so I think this is something that parents can relate to as well as the frustration and how do we stay calm when [00:06:00] we're having to repeatedly, you know, teach something and hoping that they get that skill.

But I'm wondering, is it really gonna stick? 

Dori Durbin: That's so true. There's so many different levels of that too, as they get older. I mean, shoe tie is definitely a challenge. I remember potty training was similar. This child will never use the public bathroom ever. And the same thing, you know, the shoes, the shoes is frustrating too because usually when you put your shoes on, what are you trying to do?

You're trying to leave, right? So there's a time 

Mindy Green: element with that too. Absolutely. And it's like, you know, it's like with anything, it's with any new skill that, you know, we're teaching our kids or our kids are learning, right? So it, it could be zipping up their coat. I remember I have one child who, you know, would have a hard time like trying to, you know, the coat would be inside out and trying to figure out like, are the arms in or out or, or whatever.

And so it's just, it's for us. [00:07:00] Learning to be patient and also to better, like, to give better instruction and support because I know that, you know, like you said, especially with shoe tying, there's a time limit and you're getting on your shoes typically because you're trying to get out the door and you wanna do that in a, a pretty quick fashion, you know?

And so there's not a lot of extra time built into that. They really at this point needs to be, when they're learning a new skill, whether it's too tying or as they get older too, it's like, you know, learning how to organize themselves, their backpacks, getting their, you know, their homework done, whatever it is.

It's like the lessons that that, you know, are shared in this book apply to all kinds of things throughout our, our children's lives and our lives too. 

Dori Durbin: I love that. Yeah. I was just thinking like, as kids get older. We refer to persistence in a way that we kind of expected, but it really starts really early, much earlier than most of us give kids credit [00:08:00] for.

Mindy Green: Yes, very much so. Yeah, because it's easy. And I, I think this is sometimes too, and I, I'm going to tell 'em myself here, but when my kids were younger, it's like they were in like the, the, um. The LA not, they didn't have lace shoes. They had the straps, and because some of that was just for expediency of time, you know, it's like we needed to get out the door.

And so they knew how to tie shoes, but they didn't always have to do it very often because I was like, oh, well they'll try this, but this is a skill that they need to have, you know? So then it's like at some point you need to go back and really make sure that they know how to do that. 

Dori Durbin: That's true. They go to school and that's an expectation, right?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's interesting too, I, I had shifting this just a little bit, I was thinking about Kai with his, his drawing this experience for him and how he really thought about what it felt like to be in that [00:09:00] situation and, and verbalized it through the story, but also through the art itself.

Um, yeah. That had to be really powerful for him. Um, did you see it that way too? 

Mindy Green: I did. Yes. Because, and, and I felt this way too, and, and I know I might be jumping a little ahead with this, but it, it's ties together. And it's the, uh, like even as you were drawing, you know, and asking questions about the pictures and what I wanted and what did I wanna the focus to be on like that spotlight.

And that's what I saw Kai going through, you know, as we wrote our very simplistic. Book about this and his drawings, you know, and he's like, I really wanna show how long the shoelaces are. And you know, like, did they get tangled? And I'm like, tripping over them and then figuring out how to triple knot because it's like, it's one thing to tie them, but then you have to figure out how to, how to double tie and then triple tie.

And so he really wanted to capture that. And that really to [00:10:00] me spoke to like the how pictures tell the story too. 

Dori Durbin: Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's an actually part of what I was gonna talk to you about was, you know, you had this story vision and as we worked through it, we didn't really change a lot in your story text itself.

We did some changes, but you really kind of had this, written story pretty well finished off, and then we started to work through the art. And I was curious, first of all, what it was like to actually see what Sammy looked like after the first few times, and then second to make the decisions that you had to make in the book.

How did that feel? 

Mindy Green: I'm gonna say that I, I, I was gonna say, I, I was sweating a lot, but for women, you know, what are we, what do we say? We glisten. So I was, I was really glistening through this because, you know, it's one thing to have the story, you know, like the words, and I'm a word person. I love words and I love playing around with [00:11:00] them.

I'm curious about them. How does this look? You know, how, how does this sound? How, how does this, you know, what emotion does this evoke? And so that part I really enjoy. So then we got to the, the artistic part of it. Like, what, so what does Sammy look like? And you asked a lot of questions and I was like, whoa, I don't know if I know the answers to this.

Because in my head I had a picture, but I didn't know how that would translate into like an actual picture. And, you know, the colors and and what do you know, what does, what do the pictures convey that maybe aren't. In the word, in the text itself. And so that was the part that I really, I would say, stretched me.

Um, stretched my thinking, my imagination. Like what? You know, what? What should be taken from the text, but then also where do we go, how do we interpret some of that and allow that to be in the [00:12:00] pictures. And, um, so I would say working with you and, and that questions that you asked there, and you would give me homework at times and I was like, Ooh, I don't know how, you know.

And so I'd have to really give it some thought. And I, I would say again, I mean, no better way to say it than I was really stretched through that and I really. Up enjoying the process as much as sometimes I would dread, like trying to figure out like, you know, well what, what should I do here? And um, and that's where, you know, a good, a good coach really comes in and, and you helped me through those times that I just, I had no idea.

Oh, 

Dori Durbin: thank you. I appreciate that. And I, I love that we keep using these two, uh, string puns in the middle of, it's not on purpose, folks. It's just so natural. I was gonna say, we got it all tied up, but I thought maybe that'd.

So what I think was really cool about Sammy's character is you and I kind of talked through what you wanted the [00:13:00] family to look like. I mean, we got Sammy first, but we kind of modeled that a little bit off of your own grandkids. And then we kind of also said, okay, what does the family look like?

What does Winston look like? And we got this image of the family before we ever started designing any of the pages. And I think absolutely. A good foundation. 

Mindy Green: Do you agree? Absolutely. And you know, I think that knowing who the characters were and what, and having an idea of what they look like, that allowed, um.

I think, anyway, maybe you could speak more to this, but it's like in turn, like how they looked on each of the pages. Like, you know, the setting and, and what would they be doing because we fleshed out those characters so well, you know, and, and what their response would be to different things. And, you know, the personalities just really came to life.

Dori Durbin: Yeah. We, we did, we, we talked a lot about like what their reactions would be, what. [00:14:00] What would they be doing in situations? Um, and that's important because really you think about it, you've got 32 pages. Of which they're not even 32 pages. Like really there's like the title page and the copyright, all that.

We try to use every page we can, and you have those pages to tell a story that really you want the kids to feel a part of and have this. Excitement to turn the page and see the next thing, but also still relate to the characters. And I think that's the fun magic of it. Like neither of us knows in the beginning where this is gonna go.

We just know that there's the story and we're going to fit these characters into it. And we just kept checking back. Does this kind of convey what you're trying to say in this, in this particular part of the story, I think, right? 

Mindy Green: Yes. And you know, one of the questions that you asked me early on is. How long did I want the book to be?

What did I want it to be? A picture book? Did I want it to be, you know, a, a reader or, you know, what was my thought [00:15:00] about that? And I really wanted, and I, and I knew this very strongly, that I really wanted it to be a picture book with, with text, obviously, you know? And so for me it was like figuring out, well.

How much, you know, how much text should there be versus you know, and what can be said there versus what can also be conveyed through the pictures and the illustrations. And so that was really helpful for me because I think in the beginning I had way too many words. And so what I really enjoyed about the process was you were like, well, this is how we can keep.

Most of them, but then also break them up so that for someone, for a child who is like in this age range of six to nine, that they could really, um, they could follow along and be able to read and not get lost in a long paragraph of words. So that was really helpful for me. And and.

And knowing that I really wanted the illustrations to tell a part of the story that maybe the [00:16:00] word the, you know, the words didn't. Mm-hmm. So I really enjoyed that part of it too, 

Dori Durbin: I think. I think when people come to creating a children's book story. I have very rarely seen anyone bring up 300 to 600 words as their first draft.

It's usually 5,000 words and it's super descriptive and, and it's awesome. And as an illustrator, I love the extra content because I can say, Hey, Mindy. We can draw this on this page and look it, it'll take up this much space and then we can cut all of these words out and, you know, until you talk to somebody who can help you do that, it seems like you need all of those words.

Um, right. So it is part of the process, part of the call it gleaning of the content. It's what I always tell people, it's kid sizing. It's like. They would be overwhelmed with the content that we want to give them. But if we can do it with words and pictures, then it becomes friendlier [00:17:00] and they can read into the message that you're trying to give them, but also relate.

So it's kind of a nice, a nice blend. And you were super good about it. You weren't crying about me taking words away from your story. 

Mindy Green: Because I think, again, what you just said is that you know that the pictures can tell so much of the story as well. And one of the favorite things that I like about, I have a, and I don't know if it's okay to say here, one of my favorite books that I enjoyed reading to my own kids was.

Um, gullible is troubles and so gullible is a hamster, and so he really loves soccer and he's also, his name tells you a little bit about his character. He's gullible and so when he is going to visit with his aunt and uncle and cousin, they get him to do all kinds of crazy things. So there are words involved in this, obviously.

But what I love is the pictures because it shows like him, like they say, you know, oh, because he's bothering him, bothering his uncle. His uncle says, [00:18:00] well, go and go and wash the coal, you know, because they had a coal stove. And so he's washing it. And so it's like, you don't see, you're not reading this as much as seeing the, in the, in the illustration that you know what's happening as he's washing this coal.

And so it's like, I really wanted to bring elements of that. And so when you talked about it. Um, you know, like, we don't need words necessarily for this. Then I was like, oh, that's why I loved that other book so much. 

Dori Durbin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's funny what sticks with us too, you know, as far as is being that age or even being a parent reading a book over and over it.

Yes.

The cool thing is when you have picture books, and this is part of why I love them so much, the kids could read the book by themselves without the words. At the very beginning because they're going to bring to the story their own perspective, and they, maybe we didn't even read the story to them, but they pick the book up and they tell us what it's about from their perspective.

And then where the cool [00:19:00] part comes in is where the parents read the story and like interact and are able to say, oh, did you expect that to happen? What do you think is gonna happen next? And all those pieces that really create that conversation. So yes. You actually have an event coming up very, very soon, your first ever published author, children's book author event, and we were just talking right before this about, you know, how, how do you present this to kids?

What does that look like? And I think. I think sometimes parents are afraid to read picture books to kids because they're worried that the picture books can be over too fast or they're not really sure how to do things. So do you have a couple tips that you would probably suggest to them if they were reading your book, what you would want them to pull out 

Mindy Green: to talk to their kids about?

Certainly. So, um, first of all, I'm gonna say that this is something that I did with my kids when we were reading, when I was reading to them, because each night at bedtime and even as they got older, we would read age [00:20:00] appropriate books. And so one of the things that we would do is like, we would stop at different.

Different places and we would look at the pictures and, and point out little things like those little, what we call now, I guess, Easter eggs. You know, those little surprises that are, that you can see in the, in the pictures. And so I think for parents, you know, if you can do that with your kids, like talk to them.

You know, as you're reading the book, stop for a moment and pause and say I, you know, even just asking a question, like, I wonder why he got so upset. You know, what was he so frustrated about? Or did you notice, you know, the facial expression or pulling things like that because these books are so rich.

And, you know, in life and, you know, and, and what that really looks like. So I, I can talk about my book obviously, and I can talk about like, the book that I just mentioned in gullible Troubles and, just seeing these things come to life through, through the, the pictures. So [00:21:00] use those as guides and.

As we just talked about beforehand, like about what I'm gonna do because I get to go into a school and I'm actually gonna have an opportunity to read this to my grandson Kai's class. And he's so proud. He's so proud. He's like my little marketer school. And so one of the things that I, I, you know, I wanna do is I wanna pull out a few things like, you know, I wanna ask the kids.

Do you, have you ever struggled with tying your shoes? And how many of, do you feel like you're really good at it now and and then going through like, you know, maybe we'll. How would you feel if that this happened? And because there's a surprise ending, like, did you have any idea like that was gonna happen, you know, that this is who the culprit is, or, or whatever.

You know, those are just some tips to really for yourself as a parent, look at the book and, and look at those opportunities, you know, because they're just. These are the way that we [00:22:00] establish conversation and connection with our kids so that when we get to the big things that maybe not aren't in a book.

They may be going through something with a friendship at school, or they might be struggling with, you know, a teacher or their classroom or it could be anything and everything that that happens in family life be, you know, you're setting the stage early for how you can have enough conversations with them later about things that, that seem like they're bigger, but.

To remember too, that whatever age your kids are at, if they're struggling with tying their shoes or zipping their jacket, or, brushing their hair or remembering to brush their teeth or whatever it is that we're setting the stage now, you know, and giving them the skills that they need later to be able to problem solve.

Dori Durbin: Mindy, what is the most. Exciting thing about becoming a Children's book author to you. 

Mindy Green: So this has been my childhood dream. You know, I was probably around [00:23:00] Kai's age. Kai is nine. And ever since, you know, I was that age, I always wanted to, to write my own book.

And so at first I thought, you know, maybe it would be like an old, a book for older, um, kids or something. And then like, when I, when this story happened, you know, in real life. Experiences and I had that idea that this could make a good book for children. You know, that that's the most exciting part to me is that, you know, I just used a real life example of, of.

Something and I was able to make it into a book and it just, and so I'm gonna grab this real quick 'cause I get emotional. And so like, when I look at Sammy and I see, you know, that the character that I had in my mind has come to life and and my name is on the cover, my pictures on the back, you know that this is real.

And so that's the most exciting part. And I'm like I just wanna jump up and down and say I did it. [00:24:00]

Dori Durbin: And you did. I think that's the, that makes me excited because if this was a lifelong dream that you finally saw come to fruition, and you're actually gonna take it as a tool and go into schools and show kids that they're not alone, that they can overcome frustration and parents how to do it.

That's amazing. Absolutely amazing. 

Mindy Green: I'm trying to, no, I'm trying not to cry right now because it just, it really does mean a lot. And so for anyone I would say who is considering, you know, um, writing a children's book and, um, working with someone, I just, I can't say enough how. Wonderful. The process was as much as I had to grow through it too that it is possible and it is doable.

And I'm now in my fifties and I've had this dream since I was nine. You know, if you don't do it right now, that doesn't mean [00:25:00] that you can't do it next year or later on. It doesn't have to be right away. But know that at any age you can do. You can become a published author and you know, and, and you can make that dream come true.

Dori Durbin: Yes. And I think as an expert like you are, do you see added value in having a children's book to use in the future? 

Mindy Green: Yes, absolutely. So I'm a parent coach as well. And so, you know, this is something that it has beyond just, you know, like shoe tying and, you know, this type of thing. I, you know, there's a little bonus section in the back for parents.

And so this, you know, it was something that I had wanted to have in there as well. And it's all about like, you know, how do we use calming techniques? But, and they could be very simple like breathing, that we can teach our kids and we can use ourselves. And also how do you go through problem solving? And that's something that, that has relevance to whether you're a parent a child, or if you're an [00:26:00] educator or anyone who works with with other people, you know that, that these are skills that you can use, uh, and, and techniques that you can use.

Anywhere in your life. And so having this book just as like, kind of like for me seals it, it's a good marriage between, just something fun literature wise. And also, you know, something that's very practical. 

Dori Durbin: I love that. All right. I gotta ask you a hard question. You know me in questions.

Yes, I do. So, Mindy, now that Sammy's super stretchy shoelaces out is out in the world, what is next for you? Do you have more stories in the work more with Sammy, or are you gonna surprise us? 

Mindy Green: So I, I know. Do you, you know, the answer to this, and so for the audience, listen in, I. I do have, this is the first in a series.

I have at least three other books that I, that CME and Winston and, and family are going to be a part of. And then also [00:27:00] we are gonna be working on a coloring slash activity book that will be an accompaniment to, um, Sammy's super stretchy shoelaces. So, and who knows where else we go from there.

Dory, because I have lots of ideas. 

Dori Durbin: I think it's awesome and I think it's such a, a great tie for, oh, I did it again. A great tie for kids and families to be able to have an example, see the process and know that they can make it through it. So mind, where can they find you and your. 

Mindy Green: Certainly. So I, um, have, there's a hardcover and a paperback now, and those are both on Amazon.

So you can, um, stretch, you can search for, um, me, uh, my author page, and all of my, all of those books that I have are on there. Or you can look up Sammy's super stretchy shoelaces there. And if you're also wanting more information on parenting [00:28:00] tick. Tips and techniques. Um, and I also have a free newsletter.

You can visit my website@mindygreencoaching.com and you'll find all kinds of additional resources there, as well as CM E will be, uh, a link there on the website as well. 

Dori Durbin: Awesome. Alright. I have one last question for you, Mindy. If you could leave parents and grandparents with one piece of advice for helping their kids stretch through challenges, what would that be?

Mindy Green: I would say, please just make sure that you're open to. Listening to them and observing them. So if you see them struggling with something, that's a good opportunity for a conversation. So if it's simple, like if they're frustrated, let's, with their shoe laces, you know, that can be an opportunity for you to say, Hey, I noticed you're frustrated.

How is it that I can support you or. What do you need help with? And just really listen to them. Because I think for [00:29:00] most of us, we wanna be seen, heard, and valued. And when you do that, then you create that connection that will last a lifetime. 

Dori Durbin: I love it. I love it.

Oh, Mindy, thank you so much for sharing your wonderful book with us and, and the advice on just connecting with your kids. We're gonna put your website and Sammy in our show notes, so if people wanna check it out they can drop to that. I am so excited for you and all that this book is going to bring you and all the connections that you're gonna be able to make and tie things together.

I think it's awesome. 

Mindy Green: Thank you Dori. 

Dori Durbin: Thank you for your time today, Mindy. And that's all for, that's good parenting Today, I do wanna remind people that there is that good parenting club that you can help authors like Mindy shape their books in the future.