[00:00:00] Dori Durbin: Welcome to That's Good Parenting, I'm your host, Dori Durbin. I'm a children's book author, coach, illustrator, ghostwriter, and podcaster who talks to professionals to provide parents with simple steps to reduce their parenting stress.

[00:00:15] Dori Durbin: When it comes to stress, being a parent of an athlete can be uniquely trying at times. The pressure, the expectations, the thrill, the disappointment, there's just so much. So just how do parents of athletes find that delicate balance between supporting the excellence and protecting their child's emotional well being?

[00:00:34] Dori Durbin: Licensed clinical practicing counselor and certified mental performance coach, Eric Stevenson is here again to help parents with their athletes access a growth mindset for their sports and their lives. I like to think of Eric as our own sports guru, because he's been here. This will be his triple Pete.

[00:00:53] Dori Durbin: He was also on episode 84, avoiding athletic burnout and episode 77, [00:01:00] how to be a parenting super fan. So welcome Eric. 

[00:01:04] Eric Stevenson: Sorry, thank you for having me. Like you said, this is my third time and I love being on. I love to talk sports and especially to help parents because as much as I work with athletes one on one, a huge aspect and a huge piece of their development and growth is the parents.

[00:01:19] Eric Stevenson: And then I think what the more well equipped the parents are. The better because they're gonna they're gonna be spending a whole lot more time with them than me. That's for sure. 

[00:01:27] Dori Durbin: I think parents it's such a unique challenge parenting is tough Anyway, and you're trying to teach your children, you know how to do things and provide for them It's like this balance that gets confusing But there's also like these trends that happen in sports in kids lives So Eric, what are the trends that you're seeing with our young athletes, especially when they come to you for help?

[00:01:51] Eric Stevenson: Yeah. Yeah there's certainly a multitude of reasons or, concerns that athletes, young athletes will come see me or the parents bring. But of [00:02:00] course there's trends right there, there's very common ones that, that I'm gonna bet are, nearly. 80 percent of the time.

[00:02:05] Eric Stevenson: And the first one, the most common one that we're going to see is athletes where they know they have the skill, right? The parents know they have the skill, they're successful in practice, they're successful in training, maybe some practice games, when the meaning or the pressure or the perceived pressure is lower.

[00:02:25] Eric Stevenson: But they have a very difficult time transferring those skills and that success to actual competition, because parents spent and kids spend money, time, effort with coaches and trainings and one on ones and driving them to all these practices and spending time, even outside of practice, practicing, right?

[00:02:44] Eric Stevenson: Doing, and I was one of those athletes who practice wasn't enough. I wanted to practice more. And they do all of these things. They put in this, blood, sweat, and tears. And then the game comes, the competition comes, and they fall flat on their face. They're like, what happened?

[00:02:57] Eric Stevenson: I did awful. And I didn't even feel like I could be [00:03:00] successful or it wasn't even close to what I know that I'm capable of. And that's an extremely frustrating experience for athletes. And I think, and unfortunately this might be the case now. I hope this won't be forever, but we're the last.

[00:03:15] Eric Stevenson: source that they look for. They're like I've been sending you to the, the technique coach. We've been doing all of the physical training and the gym. We've been doing extra time here. Now let's go talk to the mental guy, the mental girl. And we're the last resource. And then at least from what I see is they ended up being like, Maybe you should have been the first one or one along with those because and we're not going to get too deep into the neuroscience of it all.

[00:03:42] Eric Stevenson: But really, it's like our athletic performance is starts at our psychology, like how do we what is our perception and thoughts around it. Our experience, because if you have the skill and you have, and you've done the work ethic, but you come to a performance [00:04:00] and you're in this fixed mindset and transition to growth, you're in this fixed mindset that if then I, if I have, or if I'm doing all this work, then it has to be worth it.

[00:04:10] Eric Stevenson: I have to be successful, or if I'm not good enough, or if I can't achieve these things, then. Am I wasting all the time? Or who am I? And will people like me? So I don't care how talented and great and how much work you put in. If you come into a competition with a flawed mindset that was created by a lot of false expectations, parenting, coaching it's just going to make performing that much more difficult.

[00:04:34] Eric Stevenson: So that's going to be definitely the first one. The second one that's also correlated. The second trend that I'm going to see is parents will be like, you my son, my daughter. They fail, and they just get so down on themselves they're just mopey, they dwell they just become this different person, and they hang their head, and they get really quiet, and they don't want to see their friends and that also goes along with, they get so mad at themselves they yell at themselves, [00:05:00] they call themselves names, they, they hit themselves Whatever it is, it's the very big trend that I see is emotional dysfunction towards failure, and a lot of that is driven out of there again.

[00:05:11] Eric Stevenson: a false relationship that they have with failure, right? And this dwelling and this, this moping, this parents don't want to see it, kids don't enjoy doing it. I promise you, they might think it's helping them. Oh, if I punish myself or mope, maybe It'll do something.

[00:05:26] Eric Stevenson: It'll work, right? We'll get into many reasons why that doesn't work. But it's hard to see and it doesn't lead us to anything productive. And that's where a lot of my counseling skills come into play to really help them understand their relationship with failure. Because I know certainly I tried it.

[00:05:42] Eric Stevenson: I said maybe if I get more angry at myself, then I'll start playing better. And it didn't work. I did it all. I did. I tried to beat myself up as much as possible. And I at least my experience. It probably just made things worse. So that, that's a common one. And I'd say, and Dory, I think the third one, and this is like the big buzzword in our field, is, [00:06:00] yeah, Eric, can you help my son, my daughter, can you help them be more confident?

And 

[00:06:04] Eric Stevenson: I'm like, yeah, just tell them to play better. Like they'll be way more confident, right? While I kid there, there's a lot to say around this misunderstanding of confidence. And I even misunderstood this for years in my field. Because I was like, yeah, okay. There's, all the different research from my professors in grad school to books, to people are going to have different understandings of confidence and how to achieve it.

[00:06:26] Eric Stevenson: But I always thought man, if I'm really struggling, and a lot, sometimes I go back to my own experience, there's some anecdotal help there, but most of what I teach, everything is come, comes from empirical research. But I can think back to my own self and be like, yeah, if I was playing really bad, and then I like tried to be positive or tried to be confident.

[00:06:43] Eric Stevenson: It never really was authentic. It never really stuck or worked like I knew I put was putting on this facade. And it just didn't felt icky, in a sense, it never really worked. So what I do then versus really help them do some psychoeducation to say, okay, let's reframe what confidence actually is, [00:07:00] right?

[00:07:00] Eric Stevenson: It's the, needing to be confident, needing to trust yourself, needing to feel good. Yeah. Those things can certainly help if they're authentic and truly happening, but you do not need those things to play confidently, right? That is definitely a misunderstanding, because guess what? The best athletes in the world, they're not always trust, they don't always trust themselves.

[00:07:22] Eric Stevenson: I know, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think it was like a Yeah. a world it was like the world like skiing championships or something in that sense and they interviewed the individual after and he won and he said yeah my training lead into this was awful like I pretty much thought I would just be lucky to finish like in the top 10.

[00:07:42] Eric Stevenson: And I was like wow, that person certainly didn't have confidence. That person certainly didn't trust themselves, right? They definitely weren't feeling good. Then how did they perform well? And it's not about having the confidence per se, but it's about making like confidence choices. Like I'm going to choose to do this committed or [00:08:00] freely.

[00:08:00] Eric Stevenson: And that is something you have access to day in and day out. Because you're not always going to feel good. You're not always going to be confident. You're not always going to trust what you have. I answer that parent's question of helping my kid feel more confident by saying, okay, let's, I understand what you mean.

[00:08:14] Eric Stevenson: And I know I totally get it. Let's reevaluate what confidence truly is or what you truly need to play well. Because I know some of my, some games I did not perform well when I was feeling great. And some games I performed great when I was not feeling well. So they're not a one to one ratio by any means.

[00:08:31] Eric Stevenson: So you don't actually need it. 

[00:08:33] Dori Durbin: Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Back to the idea of the parents at the beginning, when you said that parents come to you last, 

I'm 

[00:08:41] Dori Durbin: super curious 

[00:08:42] Dori Durbin: why is there that delay? First of all. Why are you the last resort, so to speak? Is it like a stigma that people don't come to you? 

[00:08:50] Eric Stevenson: I think it could be a stigma initially. I don't think that's the number one reason. I'll go back to what I think is number one, but I think the stigma around it, especially like they might have if [00:09:00] they ask their kid, Hey, like, why don't we go talk to someone?

[00:09:02] Eric Stevenson: And it's just Oh, I've talked to someone or talk about my mind. That can be very vulnerable. It can be a very vulnerable experience for the kids. And the parents, because the parents might be like I'm about to be, I might be exposed for all the things I've been doing wrong. And, saying, or, and they know okay, I probably have something to do with my kid being really nervous before games or something like that.

[00:09:23] Eric Stevenson: So it takes vulnerable people to open up and say, Hey, we need help, or we need a guidance or assistance to say, what is the right parenting approach? What is the right approach for my child and how to be. Play more freely, be more happy. That's really the end goal for us.

[00:09:40] Eric Stevenson: So there's still a stigma. It's lessening every year, every day, which is amazing articles coming out, professional athletes talking about it. I probably saved 400 Instagram videos over the years of athletes talking about it. I'm like, I, you can name me an athlete you like, and I probably have them saved somewhere in my Rolodex of them talking about their mental but I think the first [00:10:00] reason Dory is It's the face validity of it is very low.

[00:10:04] Eric Stevenson: So what I mean by that is it doesn't appear or perceive to translate to performance, right? Where if you're a basketball player and you're struggling with free throws. It might be completely mental, right? It might be a there's no, everybody's watching think you overthink your technique, you get in your own head, you put on all this pressure on yourself.

[00:10:25] Eric Stevenson: But if you just ask the lay person to say what's going to help them to shoot free throws, like shooting more free throws, we're going to, sit down in a chair or on a FaceTime and talk with Transcribed a mental coach, right? And on surface, it would be like yeah, if I want to get better at this skill, or improve, I just have to practice said skill.

[00:10:45] Eric Stevenson: Yes, and to some degree, practicing is certainly better than not doing anything at all. But like I said, at the beginning of your podcast, trans, a lot of times these athletes already have the skill, they can do these things when they're in their backyard, when [00:11:00] they're in their driveway, no one's looking practice.

[00:11:03] Eric Stevenson: Exhibition games, but they have, they do not have access to those skills. They can't tap into those skills when it actually means something. So I think they come to therapy, they come to see, sports psychology consultants last because just on paper, it just doesn't appear to how is talking with somebody?

[00:11:24] Eric Stevenson: going to help you become a better athlete. And I was, and I can see that too, right? I can definitely understand that. Because it's not going to be on the cover of a magazine, right? It's not going to be in a Nike commercial. That's like sweaty people in this dark gym, throwing medicine balls, or, hitting in a cage or shooting a basket or, skating on ice.

[00:11:44] Eric Stevenson: That's the, that draws the attention more visually and hopefully Nike comes out with a commercial in 20 years where it's just like an athlete sitting in a chair and then it's like hard work pays off, right? And it's let's reframe. Really what hard work is [00:12:00] because, yeah, like running and push ups and stuff is hard, but, sitting in an office and being vulnerable with somebody about your psychology for an hour sometimes could be the hardest work of it all.

[00:12:10] Dori Durbin: Okay, one other question, something you said confidence. Do you feel like parents come to you to ask for confidence for the athletes and inadvertently coincide confidence with success? In other words, the only way that they're going to be successful. In their sport or achieve the goals is to have the confidence to do it.

[00:12:31] Eric Stevenson: Oh, 100%. I think that's what they see is if they see their child failing at the sport, it's Oh, you're just not confident. Or if they see them get down on themselves, they misunderstand or misrepresent that. Oh, you're just not confident. And so that's sometimes what I look like when I'm like how do you, I'll ask my mom, but how do you know when your child's confident?


[00:12:50] Eric Stevenson: One of the business misconceptions or just in psychology is trying to interpret or understand what someone's thinking, right? Like I, parents [00:13:00] all the time, my parents sometimes would say, Oh, you just weren't doing this, or you weren't thinking that. It's like, how do you know what I was doing?

[00:13:05] Eric Stevenson: And I hear parents do that all the time. So if I ask parents like, how do you know when your kid is talking? Oh, it's when they're, playing great. And I'm like there we go. We just debunked what I just talked about, which is like, You don't need to be confident, trust, feel good to always play great.

[00:13:20] Eric Stevenson: So if they're not playing well then they must lack confidence. And if they are playing well then they must be confident. And it, in a sense, it is related to success because yes, if, but if anyone, if you are getting success, if your boss is complimenting you, if your coach is complimenting you, just in general life, if you're getting the outcome success.

[00:13:39] Eric Stevenson: You're going to feel confident, right? Wow I feel good in myself, right? Nobody goes, Oh, no I don't, that doesn't change anything. You're going to feel more confident. And then yes, if you're struggling, or you're, there's a lot of adversity, a lot of failure, you're not going to necessarily feel as confident, right?

[00:13:54] Eric Stevenson: But it's more about self efficacy, it's more about the belief that you have the skills to do it. And [00:14:00] then it's more about that stable confidence being able to say okay. I don't know if I'll be successful or not. I don't know what this outcome will be or how I'm going to feel. But what I do know is if I and this is what my representation of my whole work is, detach from your distractions.

[00:14:18] Eric Stevenson: So past distractions are like failures and mistakes. Future distractions are like, what if thinking, outcome oriented, down the road, what is this going to mean about me, my future? If you can understand that your brain will go there, but you have you put their skills that I teach to just detach from there and come back to the present moment, if you can be in the present moment.

[00:14:40] Eric Stevenson: And you can perform freely in that moment if you can commit to what you want with a clear intention that is stable confidence right that is the ability to just be present. And to focus in on this singular specific task of what you want. That is all you really need to perform well. Outside of that, it doesn't necessarily, it [00:15:00] really doesn't.

[00:15:01] Eric Stevenson: It doesn't matter at all, so parents will see that. When I'm like after kids playing well, there's probably something to say they were present and confident in that moment. But that doesn't necessarily mean that's always going to be, the case in a sense. Yeah, I think there's definitely a misunderstanding of success and confidence.

[00:15:18] Eric Stevenson: What's like? You can be confident, fail and you can be successful and not have confidence. So right then and there. Let's re evaluate what we actually mean by confidence. 

[00:15:29] Dori Durbin: I love what you just said about that space where you're, how did you say it? You're detached. 

[00:15:33] Eric Stevenson: Detaching, yep.

[00:15:35] Dori Durbin: Because I was just imagining being an athlete in that situation. Okay, doesn't matter what everybody else is doing. It doesn't matter what happened before. It doesn't matter in the future. This is the moment. That's so freeing just thinking that much without even doing it's yeah, so yeah, I'm just thinking to like as a parent who is a quote unquote athlete loosely with the quotes there.

[00:15:59] Dori Durbin: I [00:16:00] know sometimes to we model things as parents that we don't even realize that we're modeling. And our kids are picking that up as well. And what are, how should we be modeling more of a growth mindset for our kids? 

[00:16:16] Eric Stevenson: Yeah, I love that. And I think that's so key and important is we, kids are going to learn from modeling more than what you tell them, right?

[00:16:23] Eric Stevenson: Do what I do not, do as I say, not as I do is I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole because that is not going to be very effective. 

[00:16:30] Dori Durbin: We can't forget his appearance because you're like, Oh, I've totally done that. Oh, shoot. I can't forget you because you saw me do that. Yeah, 

[00:16:36] Eric Stevenson: exactly.

[00:16:37] Eric Stevenson: So right. So if you're an athlete, even, as a parent, or you're a competitor in any given realm of what you do and how you respond to adversity, success, and how your children see that being modeled is more powerfully than probably anything else. going to relate to them. So for example, if you're an athlete and you're a parent and you have adversity, right?

[00:16:57] Eric Stevenson: You run into failure, [00:17:00] right? Like how you respond in that moment is massive. So something that I teach like athletes, usually themselves to say, Okay, if you're if you have adversity, or you fail having a growth mindset it's essentially going okay, that's that doesn't define me, that's doesn't define me as a person that doesn't, this doesn't define me, it's not pervasive, and it doesn't, it's not permanent, it doesn't mean that I'm going to always fail.

[00:17:28] Eric Stevenson: So what I always tell parents is to say, okay, it might be hard. But if you fail, or if you see failure, be careful to not dwell on it to not make excuses about it. Because what you're doing in that moment is you're trying to protect your identity, right? You're trying to make this a big deal. But if your kid sees you fail, they know you failed.

[00:17:47] Eric Stevenson: And then you just carry on with life as if you had a success. They go, Oh, wasn't that big of a deal to mom and dad, or they're not complaining about the ref or the failure or their teammate, or [00:18:00] they're not dwelling on themselves or ruminating on their hard work, not paying off, they're not doing any of that.

[00:18:05] Eric Stevenson: They simply just failed. And then continued on. So I really even focus on the language that mom and dad are going to use in that moment to say, okay you know what? I learned how to not do this, or I learned how to not do that, right? Maybe next time I'm going to be able to do this, right?

[00:18:23] Eric Stevenson: Okay. I don't have this skill just yet. They always talk about the power of yet in terms of the growth mindset. So your kid here is you use those terms. Those are growth mindset oriented vocabulary terms, as opposed to I just, I guess I can, I'll never win or I'm not good enough to do that.

[00:18:40] Eric Stevenson: Or, oh, it's, it was the rep's fault or the plane conditions. surfaces weren't great enough, or it was this, if you're defending yourself and using these fixed terms yeah your children are probably going to mirror that at some point. And start to become these fixed oriented sort [00:19:00] of ego protecting athletes, which it's not even just about being, the reason we focus on growth is fixed is if you truth, if you truly and authentically develop a growth mindset.

[00:19:12] Eric Stevenson: That is in itself is where we start that whole process of playing without anxiety, playing without fear, not dwelling on mistakes, not getting angry, not overthinking, that is all predicated initially on having a growth mindset. So this is where we start with parents to say, hey, developing your youth to have a growth mindset.

[00:19:35] Eric Stevenson: Is so key because otherwise, if they have a fixed mindset, yeah, they might be successful in a moment of learning curve, but as soon as they get into middle school, high school, college, and they're facing better athletes, better competition, more, more constricted room for success, that fixed mindset will be exposed really quickly.

[00:19:54] Eric Stevenson: And they'll go I guess I'm just not good enough, or what's wrong with me? Or I, what, mom and dad said I was a winner or [00:20:00] a star and I'm not winning anymore. I'm not a star. And it's yeah, you know how many times Olympians win gold? Very few. And guess what? They're Olympic athletes.

[00:20:08] Eric Stevenson: So they're not winners, right? They're not champions. And you're going to tell me they're not good at what they do, right? It's of course they are. So we have to be very careful again with how we, the vocabulary that we use. 

[00:20:20] Dori Durbin: Yeah okay, a couple things. First, I'm thinking to myself, I need a redo for my kids.

[00:20:25] Dori Durbin: And then the second thought I had was maybe there's a way to fix that as a parent. If if you realize that in the past you've used the turf as a bad example, but, the turf wasn't flat whatever the excuses that you come up with, maybe there's a way to shift that even though that they've seen you do that.

[00:20:42] Dori Durbin: Is that true? 

[00:20:44] Eric Stevenson: Yeah, there definitely can. Again. That's the whole definition of a growth mindset is nothing is fixed, it can always be, it can always be changed, right? It's the, really the the ability and the belief that you can develop something over time with consistent effort, right?

[00:20:58] Eric Stevenson: That is a rough [00:21:00] definition of what growth mindset is. So it doesn't even matter where you start. It's not Oh, it's too late. They have a fixed mindset, right? Or, Oh, it's, it doesn't matter if they're five, six, seven, or if you yourself as a parent are trying to develop a growth mindset that's where it starts to say maybe I can change this fixed mindset that I have.

[00:21:16] Eric Stevenson: And it's about the reoccurring intention to develop that, it's again, being about, first, before I get into any conversations with athletes, the first thing I want to do is a whole lot of information gathering. I'm like okay how do we know we have a fixed mindset?

[00:21:32] Eric Stevenson: What are some reasons? What are some signs? What is a fixed mindset? How do you understand that? What does that look like to you? Would you know what a growth mindset is? So the first place to start as a parent, or, a parent of a young athlete, say how do I know either my kid has a fixed mindset?

[00:21:47] Eric Stevenson: And I'll give you some reasons there. And how do I know I have one? So the first the psychology behaviors have changed, right? It's pre contemplation, and so on, is to really The first initially look at saying okay, what are some of my signs? What are some of my [00:22:00] symptoms of a fixed mindset?

[00:22:01] Eric Stevenson: Okay. How do I begin to change these, right? Okay. I got to be very careful with the language that I'm using with myself, right? How am I perceiving outcomes and what they mean about me and why do I feel fulfilled or good enough? Only when I have these outcomes, what's that about? Why do I need these outcomes, whether that's money, trophies, scholarships, why do I need these things to make me feel like I've won at life or that I'm good enough?

[00:22:30] Eric Stevenson: Again, that's where we, that's where we're going to go more counseling field and start to go a little bit deeper. But that's where that's really where the underlying Foundation of the fixed mindset comes because there is some sort of belief system that develop over your time and a lot of times what are my parents like, how did my parents Correct me or influenced me when I was a child, when I was in high, when I was a, an athlete myself, because there's [00:23:00] probably something, there's probably a lot to be said there that has a lot to do with how you think now, but being able to, yes.

[00:23:07] Eric Stevenson: It can be changed over time if you put if you write, if you continually put intention on it, catch yourself being in this fixed mindset Oh, I'm just not good enough, or I just can't do it. Oh, that was a fixed mindset type of description there. Okay, what, why, how can I reframe or reguide that statement to myself?

[00:23:28] Eric Stevenson: Okay, maybe I'm not good enough at this time. But I can be better. And I keep pushing towards this goal if I keep learning and growing and even professional athletes that are in their, 30s, 40s, like they, they are still in this belief. Yeah, if I just keep working hard, if I keep learning from every mistake that I make, if I keep making these changes I am just continuously going to grow and get better.

[00:23:50] Eric Stevenson: It doesn't end, right? It's not Oh, you've reached the growth mindset, or you've reached this goal. It's this. Everlasting, evergreen mindset that with more time [00:24:00] and more effort and persistency, I can get. 

[00:24:04] Dori Durbin: Yeah, so it's a refining of what you already have, but just stepping it up. 

[00:24:09] Dori Durbin: And I think a lot of people put those limits on having the fixed mindset without even realizing they're doing it.

[00:24:14] Dori Durbin: So that's really interesting. Okay. I have more questions. Otherwise I keep digging in that one, but one of the questions I wondered about too was, The there, there definitely is another line between what's healthy for our athletes to try to achieve and what's not healthy. And I didn't even, I had never heard of this, Eric, until my husband brought this up.

[00:24:37] Dori Durbin: There's a term called big Rexia. And I had no clue what that was, no idea that was even something that kids were trying to achieve. 

And I 

[00:24:49] Dori Durbin: was shocked by it. So maybe you can tell them from your perspective what bigorexia is, but also what is healthy versus unhealthy as far as achievement for our kids, or pursuing the [00:25:00] achievement.

[00:25:00] Eric Stevenson: Yeah, that's a really good question because it's a, that's certainly a gray line to some extent for a lot of individuals, like what is too much and what is enough? Because again, what are we always told, especially our young athletes, it's if you want something, you just got to work hard as you possibly can.

[00:25:18] Eric Stevenson: As hard as you possibly can is probably clinically. dysfunctional, right? That's probably going to be an issue at some point, right? So it's like, where is that line, right? So big rexia, a lot of times. It's this like body dysmorphia this flaw or this it's a mental health condition, but in terms of how are they perceiving themselves, right?

[00:25:38] Eric Stevenson: So similar with anorexia or eating disorders, it's this continuous push to achieve this goal that never really has an end point, right? Because there, there isn't an end point because it's mental health, right? It's simply rooted in this image or belief system that they have to say I need to be stronger.

[00:25:57] Eric Stevenson: I need to be bigger. So this continuously lifting [00:26:00] and getting bigger and overeating and a lot of things over training is cheating. So like steroids, or, unhealthy patterns of growth hormones, whatever it is to get that edge. And that in a sense, like that particular.

[00:26:17] Eric Stevenson: instance, that's going to be treated really with a clinician really with a mental health therapist to really help them understand and really break down their patterns of behavior, their irregular thinking patterns and say okay, whoa, what is enough? Why do we need to achieve this? What sort of concern or what sort of missing link is there?

[00:26:40] Eric Stevenson: That is creating some and maybe this insecurity this worry this struggle with their image that they're seeing of themselves. So we can again, we can go down that rabbit hole with the clinical aspect of it for sure. But that's going to be that in itself could be pretty independent from person to person.

[00:26:59] Eric Stevenson: [00:27:00] But mental performance coach, probably not for them, definitely more for a, licensed clinician, like myself or a psychologist or social work or something like that, that specializes in it. Body dysmorphia or eating disorders would be really good. But on the other side that relates a lot to athletes and it's again, very similar traits is where is that fine line between working really hard versus, we'll use the term overtraining.

[00:27:26] Eric Stevenson: And overtraining and burnout are different. Burnout is more of the psychological burden of training where it's I'm done. Like I've been putting in all this effort all this time, like I have no motivation anymore. So burnout is really associated again with a lot of fixed mindset stuff, being driven by parents too hard or coaches too hard.

[00:27:46] Eric Stevenson: Overtraining is the actual physiological detriment of too much time, energy, focus on the development, which is, like we said, athletes, and I do see this at times, they're [00:28:00] like, I'll give anything to achieve my dreams. And that's oh, wow, like every coach's dream yeah, this kid will do anything.

[00:28:06] Eric Stevenson: And it's like you're not supposed to practice like 11 hours a day, like that's probably not healthy long term, right? So if we're seeing just similar to a clinical perspective, right? Because guess what? People get angry, people get anxious, right? People overthink. Okay. None of those things are problematic alone.

[00:28:28] Eric Stevenson: But when those things start to approach upon dysfunction of someone's life, and what where we measure those in terms of therapy is how is it affecting their sleep, their eating, their relationships, their work, or their school, just like their general health, if those things start to become implemented because not wanting to go to school is very normal for high school kids.

[00:28:52] Eric Stevenson: But missing school because they're like throwing, they're having meltdowns or they're so incredibly anxious about [00:29:00] going to school on a daily basis. Okay, that's dysfunctional. So now we have school refusal, school anxiety, which becomes a diagnosis. So it's very similar. Hey are you working as hard as you can?

[00:29:11] Eric Stevenson: Yes. Are you getting injured because of it? Are you losing sleep because of it? Are you missing? Are you skipping hangouts with your friends or family because of it? Are you irritable and angry if you can't train, right? If you have to miss some time? Okay, we'll start. So when we start assessing those things more in a clinical spectrum, now we're going to see, okay, ask them to say because eventually it's almost like an inverted you like, yeah, the more training, again, with proper psychological framework, because again, training won't transition without, because you can train all you want.

[00:29:45] Eric Stevenson: But if you're like, I have to be a star because my dad told me good luck, right? It's going to make you're not going to be able to perform super free and in the present moment. But yeah, the more training you do, it's going to increase the likelihood of success. But there can be then you [00:30:00] keep going.

[00:30:00] Eric Stevenson: Eventually, it starts tipping the other way. And now you start better. Again, a lot of clients that I've seen that have overuse injuries that are eating, improperly for what their goals are, what they're trying to do. They're losing friends or their relationships with their friends they're not getting schoolwork done on time or completed.

[00:30:19] Eric Stevenson: Because again, there's, they're in this belief that more is better, but if we, if you talk to any, Physiologist or, can you see like sports focus trainer? They're going to say there's actually like a kind of, a point that is perfect for their sport, and it's not as much as you think, right?

[00:30:40] Eric Stevenson: It's actually only this amount of reps, this amount of time, et cetera, that is the most. efficient prescribed amount that a trainer is going to give them. So if you talk to an athletic, if you talk to a a personal trainer or an athletic trainer for a professional or high, collegiate team, they're going to say, here's the workout for today.[00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Eric Stevenson: And then the rest is rest. And so one of the things that I always. Tell my clients who maybe struggle with perfectionism over training, because a lot of overtraining is rooted perfectionism, because they're searching for a sense of control. If I just train more than I can control my outcomes more.

[00:31:17] Eric Stevenson: It's nope, unfortunately. And I always ask, okay, how's that working for you. So like you're a star now and I'm like so it hasn't been working for the past three years like maybe, are you willing to try something different. But yeah, it's the more that they train, it's rooted out of this anxiety, right?

[00:31:31] Eric Stevenson: They're searching for control. It's something I always tell my athletes is resting. is hard work, right? And again, back to your first point of face validity. Why do people not go see us, a mental coach right away, because sitting on the couch and watching your TV shows seems like something a lazy person would do, or seems like something like somebody that's not driven would do.

[00:31:56] Eric Stevenson: But the next frontier and performance similar to sports psychology. [00:32:00] is recovery. So some pro athletes that I know their coaches are measuring their sleep, their rest, their recovery, like they need, they say this is, we actually concerned more about how much your recovery and sleep patterns are versus we know you work hard.

[00:32:16] Eric Stevenson: We know you do the work. But recovery and rest is if not more important than the actual work itself. So when I help break that down with an athlete or even a parent to say, Hey, let's look at the benefits scientifically of sitting on the couch and doing nothing. If you now can understand that increases the likelihood of your success on the field.

[00:32:37] Eric Stevenson: Then they become a little bit more willing to do that versus go. Like just, always trained. 

[00:32:44] Dori Durbin: That's really fascinating. I think at least my upbringing was always, you're lazy. Like you said, if you're not doing something to progress it. And I actually can think of in high school and in college and other people now that.

[00:32:59] Dori Durbin: They [00:33:00] get their coaches workout and they think that's okay for them, but I want to be better. And so I'm going to go and I'm going to jog another five miles today or whatever. Just because it'll make me feel like it's so much easier later. So it's justified in their minds, but really like you're saying, if they're not, if they're not following the workout and not doing the rest of the rest days, their body's not going to recover anyway.

[00:33:21] Dori Durbin: So they're never going to perform the way that they want to. 

[00:33:25] Eric Stevenson: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Because this podcast has so much good information and Eric is so knowledgeable, we've decided to split this longer podcast into two. So you have just listened to part one of this podcast with Eric Stevenson. Please come back and listen to part two next week or look at the episode list for his next one.


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