Amanda Riley and Dori POKB Recording
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[00:00:00] Amanda Riley: And so I really want to raise awareness of that because there's amazing, strengths that come with a unique brain. So I'm really working hard to balance out that negative medically driven narrative around these disorders especially for kids. How do you tell your kids, you got attention deficit hyperactive disorder, it's just, it's all wrong. It was like, okay, how can I prepare the future world for you? Because you are going to be, as far as I can see it, the most neuro aware generation that there has been.
[00:00:31] Dori Durbin: What if you found out that it's not just one child in your family who has ADHD, but it's both your children. And you as the parent, too.
[00:00:42] Dori Durbin: ToDay, we're taking a look at what thriving with a neurodivergent diagnosis really means for kids and parents. Both. We'll also walk through an explanation of neurodivergent disorders, what stigmas are fears around them and how one family thrived with three neurodivergent family members all in the same [00:01:00] household.
[00:01:00] Dori Durbin: Today's guest is a mom, a founder thriving with neurodiversity change manager, communication strategist, top 50 global neurodiversity evangelist, who wants to flip the negative narrative around neurodivergent disorders and raise awareness about neurodiversity.
[00:01:19] Dori Durbin: Welcome to the show, Amanda Riley. Hi!
[00:01:23] Amanda Riley: Lovely to be here, Dori, thank you. It's yeah, very exciting to be able to talk to you about all of
[00:01:28] Dori Durbin: this. It's so fascinating, and I think for some people the terminology probably throws them off just a little bit. Some listeners might not really know what neurodiversity means.
[00:01:39] Dori Durbin: I don't know if you could explain it to us, just in case they don't know.
[00:01:42] Amanda Riley: Yeah, I'll keep it. I'll keep it brief. There is actually two key terms. So neurodiversity is a school of thought that everybody has a unique brain. So everybody is different and everybody's brain is unique. So there are no two brains alike in the world and neurodivergent, which is the E and T on the end [00:02:00] is Some people's brains are wired differently enough that they could get a diagnosis of ADHD or autism or dyslexia or whatever comes under that neurodiversity umbrella.
[00:02:11] Amanda Riley: So the neurodiversity is everyone and neurodivergent is those that can seek and probably get a diagnosis of one of those conditions.
[00:02:18] Dori Durbin: And that's a pretty broad area too, isn't it? The conditions are, yeah, quite expansive.
[00:02:24] Amanda Riley: Yeah. Oh, depending on who you read, it's between six and 10 underneath that
[00:02:28] Dori Durbin: umbrella.
[00:02:28] Dori Durbin: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So yeah, big group for people who also aren't familiar with ADHD and what that feels like for, the child or the family. What does,
[00:02:40] Amanda Riley: what is that okay, so we have there's three main types of ADHD. There's hyperactive, which a lot of people are familiar with because it's the hyperactive boy in the classroom type stereotype.
[00:02:52] Amanda Riley: There's inattentive, which is a struggle to Focus but it's not a struggle to pay attention. [00:03:00] It's that our brains move so fast and we are interested by so many things that our brains don't stand still long enough. So it's not a lack of focus. It's actually too much focus. And then there's impulsive, which is a lot of.
[00:03:15] Amanda Riley: Actions like you're thinking about doing something and before you even realize it, your body's already done it. So whether that's verbal or whether that can be physical, sometimes with kids, et cetera. Some people have a predominant type and other people have a mix of all three. And in my house, we are probably a mix of all three with inattentive being the strongest.
[00:03:34] Dori Durbin: Okay. Okay. So do you have episodes where somebody is doing something where they didn't realize that they were doing it
[00:03:40] Amanda Riley: daily, especially, siblings, I have a.
[00:03:42] Amanda Riley: 12 year old boy and an early 14 year old girl. So siblings are interactive anyway. But when you wrap up some impulsivity into it they can go from zero to 10 in a second. Like they might be sitting there, then one of them will do something or touch the other one. And then before you know it, it's just like [00:04:00] World War III is going on and it's just, and then they stop and they go.
[00:04:05] Amanda Riley: Oh, as even what just happened, which is right into it. And then you have yes, then there's the inattentive where trying to do homework or trying to they're focusing on something that actually really enjoy. So nothing else exists. So there's a whole, it's, this is five more episodes, but the biggest thing is the executive dysfunction, which is the emotional regulation, the.
[00:04:31] Amanda Riley: Why and how we do things and stuff like that. So it's a lot more complex than people understand. It actually is a whole brain type thing, and it does impact most elements of life if it goes unnoticed or never go unnoticed, but if it goes untreated.
[00:04:45] Dori Durbin: Yeah, so what are some of the negative connotations that people just automatically stamp on to ADHD or to neuro divergent diagnosis.
[00:04:56] Amanda Riley: There's a lot of adults getting diagnosed late in life, but due to stigma or [00:05:00] discrimination or just. Feeling people just won't understand they just, they don't tell people with kids. It's they're just lazy.
[00:05:09] Amanda Riley: They're just being naughty. Oh, she's a daydreamer just looking out the window. But it's quite important to note that intelligence is not linked to any of this intelligence is quite separate. So none of these conditions are linked. to intelligence. So it doesn't mean you have a a low intelligence if you've got ADHD, they're quite separate.
[00:05:28] Amanda Riley: How you manage your ADHD will link into your intelligence and how well you can thrive in that area. But there, it doesn't mean any, somebody is slow or, they can't remember things, et cetera. They're quite separate. I think that's a really, especially with kids, it's a really key point to pull out that, to help them with their confidence.
[00:05:47] Amanda Riley: Yeah. Yeah, I think,
[00:05:49] Dori Durbin: I think that the whole concept of having a stereotype does tend to drive it to having this assumption that it's a comprehension type of thing or, and it's not [00:06:00] that so that's really, that's a great point to point out. How did you know so if you had your daughter was the first one that you noticed.
[00:06:09] Dori Durbin: We had some different, okay. What
[00:06:11] Amanda Riley: did you notice? To be honest, we didn't notice her teacher did she was in grade two over here. She was probably about eight years old and she was our first, so her behavior was our normal because, we didn't really have a lot to compare it to. We knew she was quite emotional and she was a wild and wacky kid and so we didn't really notice anything, but when it got to like, when she was eight years old, her teacher came up to us and said, look, I don't usually talk to parents about this, but there's something not right there.
[00:06:42] Amanda Riley: She's either not listening properly because I tell her instructions, and then she'll go away and then she'll come back again and ask what they were again and then she'll get the first step and then she won't get the second step. So I think there's a hearing thing or processing thing going on. So that just started us.
[00:06:58] Amanda Riley: And we came back with the [00:07:00] diagnosis of ADHD and at that stage we were that stereotype group of, we went, isn't that hyperactive little boys? We knew nothing. We knew nothing. That kicked off my seven years of research into ADHD, neurodiversity, autism, anxiety, all that stuff.
[00:07:17] Dori Durbin: Yeah. Okay. So then was your son the next one that you
[00:07:20] Amanda Riley: realized?
[00:07:22] Amanda Riley: No, you were, I was he was next in the fact that he got diagnosed with social and generalized anxieties at a young age. And in hindsight, that is a sign that there's usually something else going on. If there's no trauma or there's no major upheaval in their lives and stuff. Then that anxiety at that young an age is probably coming from some sort of brain neurological goings on.
[00:07:46] Amanda Riley: So he got diagnosed the anxieties, but then I got diagnosed with ADHD and social anxiety. After doing 18 months of solid research on my daughter, I then had all of these aha moments[00:08:00] and I finally went to see a psychologist and psychiatrist as well. And that's very common. That is so common now that because testing of kids is improving more are getting tested and seen.
[00:08:12] Amanda Riley: And so then more adults are now going, Oh, so, that was mine. And then, so that was five years ago for me. And then 18 months ago, my son came back with ADHD, anxiety, and autism. So we've got, we have a very Vibrant household.
[00:08:28] Dori Durbin: I like that terminology.
[00:08:30] Amanda Riley: Very nice. It's a positive spin.
[00:08:33] Dori Durbin: Yes. So then, diagnosis has to happen through a psychologist and psychiatrist. Then is that like how you get your official diagnosis?
[00:08:41] Amanda Riley: You start off with a doctor's appointment because they have to provide the referrals. And then you go, you start with a psychologist. But for the kids, it can be a pediatrician and then go straight to a pediatrician.
[00:08:53] Amanda Riley: For myself, it was a psychologist, but then if you go down the path of medication, which we have, and I'm very [00:09:00] open about that, then as an adult, you have to go see a psychiatrist because they're the only ones that can provide. The medication that you need, but with the kids, they can just stay with the pediatrician who does everything until they're about 18.
[00:09:12] Dori Durbin: Okay. Interesting. Once the medication was a factor in your lives, was there a major improvement then?
[00:09:20] Amanda Riley: Or what did you notice? For myself from day one, it was just amazing. The fog lifted. I could sit in a meeting and pay attention. It was just the benefits have been overwhelming. For my daughter, who was the first one and we were so We had that, oh my gosh, I'm going to medicate my child kind of mentality.
[00:09:41] Amanda Riley: But we thought we'd at least try it because she needed something because she was getting to the point where she was missing schoolwork because she couldn't pay attention too much and she was just getting distracted by all the stuff around her that she was actually starting to impact her learning.
[00:09:55] Amanda Riley: So we. She tried it and she, they always started in small [00:10:00] doses. So hers lasted until midday. And then the next time we went back to her pediatrician, her first question to him was, can I have a tablet that lasts all day? And this was her asking that. And I just sat there going, Oh, thank goodness we did the right thing.
[00:10:15] Dori Durbin: Yeah.
[00:10:16] Amanda Riley: Yeah. You can see the benefit. She noticed when it stopped and she just noticed what happened next. And she didn't want that at school. It's, it can be hit and miss and everybody's different and it doesn't work for everybody. But medication with a combination of skills and other complementary therapies is what we do.
[00:10:34] Dori Durbin: I think a lot of parents would be very apprehensive about, giving medicine that's going to. Dictate behavior or thinking in some way, but obviously if she's asking for it, she saw that positive changes.
[00:10:47] Amanda Riley: And on the flip side, there's a lot of research that shows untreated ADHD leads to far more problems in teenage years and later in life.
[00:10:55] Amanda Riley: So it's however you choose to, it is better to acknowledge and treat it [00:11:00] in whatever way you choose.
[00:11:02] Dori Durbin: Yeah, that's really interesting. So this, so all of your experience, you alluded to this just a little bit ago, but your son basically started you down a path that was, I think, a career change for you. Yes.
[00:11:16] Dori Durbin: Yes. Tell us a little bit about
[00:11:17] Amanda Riley: that. It was a career kind of expansion. Yeah. Cause I had post my diagnosis five years ago, I was like, I began to understand myself for the first time. I began to realize how I worked for the first time ever. So after 45 years, that's a pretty big revelation. So it took me a while to work through that and work it all out.
[00:11:34] Amanda Riley: And and the more I knew and the more research I did and I have a strong career in change and communications. And a lot of it, so I'm worked in the corporate world and many other kinds of industries because of the nature of my role, which is awesome. And that's actually really good for my brain because I'm constantly changing and moving.
[00:11:54] Amanda Riley: You find your path. And I realized that. Current work [00:12:00] practices and current work structures, et cetera are not set up for different brains and the ways different ways people like to work or needs to work. There. Most, even the school system, which is another five podcasts, even the school system is set up for the normal brain.
[00:12:16] Amanda Riley: The world is set up for like normal brains, and I'm using rabbit, ears, ear, whatever you call them. When I say normal, because there's really no such thing as normal. So I have started this business where it's called Thriving with Neurodiversity. So I'm using my 20 years of change in comms to raise awareness and understanding and acceptance of neurodiversity.
[00:12:38] Amanda Riley: Neurodiversity within workplaces, because the latest statistics are between 1 in 5 or 1 in 7 are neurodivergent. So they could seek or do have a diagnosis. Most might not know that yet. Because at most some, especially some adults might not want to seek anything. But there's a large portion of the world that [00:13:00] view, interpret, understand, explain the world differently.
[00:13:03] Amanda Riley: To the majority. And so I really want to raise awareness of that because there's amazing, apart from some of the, impacts of these disorders there's amazing strengths that come with a unique brain. So my I'm really working hard to balance out that medically, that negative medically driven narrative around these disorders and deficits and all that kind of stuff, especially for kids.
[00:13:27] Amanda Riley: How do you tell your kids, you got attention deficit hyperactive disorder, it's just, it's all wrong. I'm trying to balance a lot of that out by firstly, helping newly diagnosed. Female adults with ADHD. So late in life diagnosis I do one on one coaching in regards to helping them reconnect with their purpose and goals and values and strengths and because living undiagnosed for many years, their confidence is probably not great.
[00:13:53] Amanda Riley: They've probably got anxiety or depression along with it. There's a whole bunch that comes with that. So that's a real passion of mine. And I've met some [00:14:00] amazing women doing that. But then from my kid's perspective, it was like, okay, how can I prepare the future world for you? Because you are going to be, as far as I can see it, the most neuro aware generation that there has been.
[00:14:13] Amanda Riley: Because there's so much more talk about neurodiversity, and there's so many kids now getting diagnosed, and my daughter's very open about her diagnosis, so she's attracted friends who are the same, and how do we even out, get rid of some of those differences so it's not seen as a, you've got a real bad negative thing, more as, You've got amazing things you can offer the world, our business, whatever.
[00:14:38] Amanda Riley: So I want to prepare for future workplaces for kids like mine, who are going to be very aware, they're going to be very resilient because they would have had lots of bad days. And they know how to bounce back, but the current structures and ways of hiring and all that kind of stuff. Don't suit them.
[00:14:55] Amanda Riley: So if you want to get the uniqueness of their strengths, then you need to be aware of what's out [00:15:00] there. I tried to summarize that, but I'm not sure
[00:15:03] Dori Durbin: So if you had a woman comes to you for the first time, realizing that, she's been labeled.
[00:15:08] Dori Durbin: How do you. Dig out what she feels confidently good at, because it seems like you're right. There would be years of being told that you're not sitting long enough. You're not focused, whatever the scenario was, how do you get to that?
[00:15:26] Amanda Riley: It depends on their level of awareness of ADHD as well. And I'm not a medical doctor and I'm not a counselor.
[00:15:32] Amanda Riley: My, my focus is to provide information and. Guidance on where they can go to read more and who they should probably speak to stuff. If other things come up, I've got it. I do use to evidence and data based strengths tools. So I. I'm very big on data and research and making sure that what I use is, you can, someone can get the results, hold it up and go, okay, this has been [00:16:00] scientifically tested.
[00:16:00] Amanda Riley: This has been devised by, the two I use have both been generated. With psychologists involved and they've both been used. One's been used 5 million times around the world. One's been used a million times around the world, and they've got lots of research and data behind them. Cause I think that's really important.
[00:16:14] Amanda Riley: You need to give them something that's tangible and something that is evidence based. You think this and this, but actually science is telling you this. So that's always a really good starting point. And then, so we just focus on that kind of stuff. And then I just we work on goals and I have a specific goal setting technique I use for women with ADHD because normal goal setting doesn't work.
[00:16:34] Amanda Riley: And we discuss purpose and we discuss values and it slowly starts to turn around what they think of themselves, because, it's just and I make them, we talk about, we focus on moments at work where you felt really good and what were you doing and who was there and moments in life.
[00:16:51] Amanda Riley: And so just start to pull out some of that bit of science, a bit of their life and just bring it together just to reset, I
[00:16:59] Dori Durbin: [00:17:00] guess. Yeah. I can see how all those pieces would be needed. The Yeah. The scientific piece. The kind of coping skills and awareness.
[00:17:09] Amanda Riley: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Dori Durbin: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Dori Durbin: Yeah. Okay. Tell me about Ned Hallowell.
[00:17:13] Amanda Riley: I
[00:17:13] Dori Durbin: had
[00:17:14] Amanda Riley: I had just I was doing a postgraduate in positive psychology at Melbourne University here and. Because I was really focusing on workplace well being and how I could wrap that in and just because I know that the workplace, especially for neurodivergent people can be just, It's awful.
[00:17:31] Amanda Riley: I can't think of any other words right now, but it just, it can be awful because you're doing a lot of masking and hiding, et cetera. So I did something, I did a positive psychology thing and that got me onto all of the strengths based research and the goal setting research and everything as well. And then because of that, a friend suggested I listen to this podcast, which had Ned Halliwell on it.
[00:17:48] Amanda Riley: And I hadn't. Heard a lot about him, but he is just amazing. He has ADHD himself. I think he's in his 70s. He's written numerous books on ADHD and he has a real focus on [00:18:00] strengths. So he doesn't discount the negatives, but he works really hard and just has all the research there to go. Okay. So instead of thinking I can't focus on anything.
[00:18:12] Amanda Riley: I'm not going to get anything done. The flip of that is actually you're just naturally curious. How about you look at it from that point that you're naturally curious, blah, blah, blah. And it just reframes it and it makes you think of it differently. And he has a lot of research behind what he does and it's just the other side of the whole medically driven narrative.
[00:18:30] Amanda Riley: And he's one of the leaders in that field. There's a few doing it now, but he's the leader in that field of just focusing on the positives and the amount of research. He has done. He's a psychologist, scientist. And that just made me realize we can do this differently. So that was a real massive aha moment for me.
[00:18:47] Amanda Riley: That one, I've got a few
[00:18:49] Dori Durbin: people, it probably also gets works really well with kids, right? Having that reframing focus.
[00:18:56] Amanda Riley: Yeah, get them before they're teenagers though, because [00:19:00] then I just don't want to listen to you.
[00:19:02] Dori Durbin: The reframing just doesn't set
[00:19:03] Amanda Riley: either. No, it just doesn't work. It's just yeah, whatever mom.
[00:19:07] Amanda Riley: So start early with kids if you can. That's my top tip. Start early. If you haven't got it into them by the time they're 13, you've lost them until they're about 18. Yeah,
[00:19:18] Dori Durbin: I was going to say, well spoken from mom with two, right?
[00:19:22] Dori Durbin: Okay, if there were some suggestions, you gave one that you had for family members. Who have neurodivergent kids in their family, what would be a few suggestions that you have with maybe even talking with them or directing them, helping them out?
[00:19:39] Amanda Riley: Okay, so the first thing I would suggest is do your own research.
[00:19:43] Amanda Riley: There's so much stuff out there, but there is some really good resources that I could recommend as a starting point that the ones that are really there's one called attitude mag, which is been around for years, very much science and research based, but they write everything in short articles, layman's terms, and they're.[00:20:00]
[00:20:00] Amanda Riley: breadth of research is just amazing. They've got articles for kids, for adults, for women with menopause, for just, it's just amazing. So do your own research first. Talk to the kid about them, about it because some parents don't want to mention it, but your kid knows they're different.
[00:20:14] Amanda Riley: Your kid knows, we know how intuitive kids are, right? My daughter knew that she was different, even at eight, right? She thought she had hearing issues. That was how she associated because she knew she missed things, right? So she actually started to self advocate for herself and would sit at the front of the class all the time because she thought she couldn't hear.
[00:20:33] Amanda Riley: So she knew she was different in that way. And she also knows that socially, she's different. She can see how everyone else acts and how she acts. So they know if they are different. So if you can. talk to them about that and explain why they are different. It helps them understand. They might not like it and they might push back, but I think giving them the knowledge to work it out is really important.
[00:20:56] Amanda Riley: Otherwise, you'll have people like myself who knew they were different for most of their lives, [00:21:00] had no idea why. So by the time they got diagnosed, they were a bag of mess. So it's, I think it's really important from that perspective. But also let them guide the conversation. I found learning my daughter, if you go into her too far, she's just So I now, as she's older, we now can have more conversations, but with my son is okay, this is it.
[00:21:21] Amanda Riley: This is a bit of, here's a summary of everything. I strongly, I always try and focus on the strengths. Because they struggle to see the strengths, of course, because they know that they are different to other kids. And no kid wants that. So that's a long, that's a long game. That's a real long game, that whole strength stuff, but it's start now.
[00:21:38] Amanda Riley: And then I every now and then I'll bring it up, but I let them guide it. So I let them ask me, they, they have questions or, so it's more now guided by them in regards to what they. What they want to know what they want to ask you something comes up, etc. So I don't bombard them with information.
[00:21:54] Amanda Riley: Post my diagnosis. I don't pre diagnosis. I probably did. So I [00:22:00] let them. So it's about I think I've just to summarize that it's do your own research, have the conversations with them because they do know they're different. So if you can give them a framework of context that will help amazingly with their understanding.
[00:22:13] Amanda Riley: And just take it slow and let them guide but always focus on those strengths too. And, always back them at school, especially always going to bat for them. Cause they're going to need it. How about
[00:22:22] Dori Durbin: for people who just found out that they have a disorder? Are there any recommendations you give to them if they're adults or kids?
[00:22:31] Amanda Riley: For, I guess for adults, from what I've learned is adults are naturally research hungry. Some are some are still, want to push it aside. But all I can say is that the quicker you understand how it impacts you, because Everybody with ADHD or everybody with autism is different, right?
[00:22:48] Amanda Riley: So if you do some reading and stuff, or you talk to other people, there's heaps of Facebook groups and just find out more. If your preference is to learn from others, then join some of the Facebook groups. If you'd like to do your [00:23:00] own, then do some reading, whatever it is. If you give yourself the knowledge, then you give yourself the power to understand how it impacts you.
[00:23:08] Amanda Riley: And what's particular to you? You don't have to tell anybody else if you don't want to, because I've had some some women who have told people and they've all been really supportive, or I had another woman recently who wanted to start to tell her family. And they were all just oh, all dismissive and stereotype and all that kind of stuff.
[00:23:24] Amanda Riley: Choose who you want to tell as well. Find the people who you know will support you. Cause it, it's a massive change to have this sudden understanding and learning about yourself. It's massive. So you need people who are going to encourage and support. Cause if you get people who are negative, then it sets you back and it takes you a lot longer to.
[00:23:41] Amanda Riley: Get going.
[00:23:42] Dori Durbin: That's great advice. So if after listening to you, they have thousands of questions that are unanswered, they really want to talk to you. Where's the best place for them to find you and get in contact with you?
[00:23:54] Amanda Riley: Depending on their preference I'm on LinkedIn under my name, Amanda Riley, or through my [00:24:00] website thriving with neurodiversity.
[00:24:02] Amanda Riley: There's multiple ways you can contact me through there. And there's also lots of resources on that page and that site as well. But I love questions so if anybody has any questions or wants direction to certain resources, et cetera, please reach out because, that's, this is what makes me thrive.
[00:24:17] Amanda Riley: I've discovered. So this is my passion is what makes me drive. And I love talking about it. And helping where I can.
[00:24:23] Dori Durbin: You are a tremendous resource, and I know that if they feel that, that welcome ability to reach out, they're going to, so thank you so much for all your time your energy, and your, just your knowledge.
[00:24:36] Dori Durbin: Thank you. Oh,
[00:24:37] Amanda Riley: no, thank you for the opportunity. This is wonderful. Thank you very much.
[00:24:42] Dori Durbin: Thank you.